New York Times Leaf Article

[packs]

I think even Musial depends on whether you consider his Montiel card his true rookie or not. It predates all 1948 issues too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I think even Musial depends on whether you consider his Montiel card his true rookie or not. It predates all 1948 issues too.

He's also in 1947 Homogenized BB, but I don't think most people would go there either.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by packs

I think even Musial depends on whether you consider his Montiel card his true rookie or not. It predates all 1948 issues too.

Agree. If you consider Jackie's true rookie to be the 47BB, then logically the Montiel must be Musial's rookie card (or at least supersedes the 48B for rookie card status).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bk400

Agree. If you consider Jackie's true rookie to be the 47BB, then logically the Montiel must be Musial's rookie card (or at least supersedes the 48B for rookie card status).

Logically we could distinguish a US baseball issue from a Cuban multisport issue, no?

[packs]

Usually I would agree but the Montiel is a tough one. Musial appears in his Cardinals uniform and his career up to date with the Cardinals is featured in his bio on the back. The issue is also referred to as 1946-47 which would I think challenge any other issue.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Usually I would agree but the Montiel is a tough one. Musial appears in his Cardinals uniform and his career up to date with the Cardinals is featured in his bio on the back. The issue is also referred to as 1946-47 which would I think challenge any other issue.

When did he wear #19?

[BioCRN]

There are no winners in a regional issue vs national issue RC debate.

Then there's "Do exhibits count?" and "Do card game cards count?"...etc

It ends with more RC's than people thought possible once everyone has stated their side.

[BigfootIsReal]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

There are no winners in a regional issue vs national issue RC debate.

Then there's "Do exhibits count?" and "Do card game cards count?"...etc

It ends with more RC's than people thought possible once everyone has stated their side.

The recent Ruth Morehouse (regional issue) was auctioned as a "rookie". What's up with that then?

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

When did he wear #19?

No idea. DiMaggio is wearing number 18 on the Hank Erickson National Chicle.

This write up on Musial's 1941 debut features the original photo used for the Montiel card. Looks like a Cardinals uniform to me:

https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/sept...-league-debut/

From the photo credit on the web page: Stan Musial — pictured wearing a number 19 jersey during spring training 1942 in St. Petersburg, Florida — hit .426 in 12 games as a rookie call-up in September 1941. (National Baseball Hall of Fame Library)

So the Montiel features a photo of Musial from spring training 1942. I would say that's another plus for that card.

[Kutcher55]

What a trivial debate. On a more interesting subject (at least to me), can anyone tell me just how “short” the SPs are for 1948-9 Leaf? They seem to get a massive premium suggesting they are much more than twice as rare as their non SP counterparts. Relative pop counts suggest the same. Is there an old net54 thread someone can direct me to that helps answer this question? Why are these SPs so dang short?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

No idea. DiMaggio is wearing number 18 on the Hank Erickson National Chicle.

This write up on Musial's 1941 debut features the original photo used for the Montiel card. Looks like a Cardinals uniform to me:

https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/sept...-league-debut/

From the photo credit on the web page: Stan Musial — pictured wearing a number 19 jersey during spring training 1942 in St. Petersburg, Florida — hit .426 in 12 games as a rookie call-up in September 1941. (National Baseball Hall of Fame Library)

So the Montiel features a photo of Musial from spring training 1942. I would say that's another plus for that card.

Good find.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by packs

I think even Musial depends on whether you consider his Montiel card his true rookie or not. It predates all 1948 issues too.

Certainly it predates the others, but doesn't something have to be a card to be a rookie card? The Montiels are just paperstock cutouts that otherwise look like baseball cards.

[Pat R]

So what baseball card did Ken Keltner show to the bartender?

December 24 Wisconsin newspaper
1948 Ken Keltner Baseball card The_Post_Crescent_1948_12_24_21.jpg

[packs]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Certainly it predates the others, but doesn't something have to be a card to be a rookie card? The Montiels are just paperstock cutouts that otherwise look like baseball cards.

I’ve never heard of anyone refer to the Montiel Desportes set as being hand cut. They have received number grades for as long as I’ve been familiar with them.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by packs

I’ve never heard of anyone refer to the Montiel Desportes set as being hand cut. They have received number grades for as long as I’ve been familiar with them.

I don't know if they were cut by hand or not. My point was merely that they aren't cards.

[packs]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I don't know if they were cut by hand or not. My point was merely that they aren't cards.

Then what are they? Cards can be made of a material other than standard Topps cardboard and be a card.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by packs

Then what are they? Cards can be made of a material other than standard Topps cardboard and be a card.

I am aware that there are different card stocks, but the Montiels are not printed on any of them. The paper they are printed on is newsprint, so you can call them sports images or whatever you like, but if you try to hold one level (horizontal) from the corner you'll find that they are decidedly not any sort of card. They'll just flop over, the same as any sheet of newspaper would, because that is how the material behaves. I don't expect we'll ever all agree on the minimum or maximum length or width for a baseball card, but I think we can at least agree that it needs to be a card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

FWIW PSA calls them cards.

https://www.psacard.com/cardfacts/mu...-deporte/27394

[packs]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I don't know if they were cut by hand or not. My point was merely that they aren't cards.

Then what are they? Cards can be made of a material other than standard Topps cardboard and be a card.