Fake Lajoie slabbed by PSA, Ebay seller: vintage_card_shop

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Chock one up for PSA - they got the Lajoie, M101-5, and blank back part correct on their label. They just forgot that they shouldn't be grading reprints.

Originally Posted by jingram058

Expensive cardboard = more + more fakery

Originally Posted by Leon

PSA sure knows vintage!

The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that the card is not a present day fake.

First of all, no fraud artist would have sealed the card so crookedly. Sloppiness of that magnitude is a PSA hallmark.

But I don't understand how/why any fraudster would have added the black line around the player's photo. This card looks to be some other shyster's knockoff of these M101-5 cards that they used to sell their own product in 1916-17 without having to pay for the cards. So copyright infringement from over a century ago. Yes, there are other examples of this phenomenon. Outfits in the Philippines and other U.S. territorial possessions were often inclined to knock off American material and release it as their own.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that the card is not a present day fake.

First of all, no fraud artist would have sealed the card so crookedly. Sloppiness of that magnitude is a PSA hallmark.

But I don't understand how/why any fraudster would have added the black line around the player's photo. This card looks to be some other shyster's knockoff of these M101-5 cards that they used to sell their own product in 1916-17 without having to pay for the cards. So copyright infringement from over a century ago. Yes, there are other examples of this phenomenon. Outfits in the Philippines and other U.S. territorial possessions were often inclined to knock off American material and release it as their own.

Completely agree with this. You should have seen the stuff for sale in Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines back in the 1980s and 90s. Everything, and I mean everything, copied and for sale for pennies on the dollar.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Completely agree with this. You should have seen the stuff for sale in Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines back in the 1980s and 90s. Everything, and I mean everything, copied and for sale for pennies on the dollar.

It is still like that now plus you can have pretty much an exact copy of anything you don't see made if you want to order enough.

They have everything from very low end copies that look bad from a long way away to super high end fakes that can and do fool some experts.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

But I don't understand how/why any fraudster would have added the black line around the player's photo. This card looks to be some other shyster's knockoff of these M101-5 cards that they used to sell their own product in 1916-17 without having to pay for the cards. So copyright infringement from over a century ago. Yes, there are other examples of this phenomenon. Outfits in the Philippines and other U.S. territorial possessions were often inclined to knock off American material and release it as their own.

Just in case this claim was serious - this card is just a Fritsch reprint, which was not produced for fraudulent purposes, altered by somebody else to look old. That's why the lines are how they are, matching the Fritsch copy. This is not from 1916-1917. It is not from the Philippines. It is not copyright infringement from over a century ago.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by G1911

Just in case this claim was serious....

Huh?! Why would I not be serious?

Originally Posted by G1911

...this card is just a Fritsch reprint, which was not produced for fraudulent purposes, altered by somebody else to look old. That's why the lines are how they are, matching the Fritsch copy. This is not from 1916-1917. It is not from the Philippines. It is not copyright infringement from over a century ago.

That's the first mention of Fritsch reprint I've seen in this thread. If you're referring to Larry Fritsch Cards (from whom I've bought), whyever would they have produced a copy of a 100+ year old card anyway?

[Rich Klein]

Fritsch as TCMA did in the 1970's (1973 had several) issued those reprints and clearly marked as such so collectors could have cards they might have

1) Never Seen or were very difficult to find

2) Could not afford

3) At a price level they (Meaning Fritsch TCMA etc.) could make $$$.


Regards
Rich

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Huh?! Why would I not be serious?



That's the first mention of Fritsch reprint I've seen in this thread. If you're referring to Larry Fritsch Cards (from whom I've bought), whyever would they have produced a copy of a 100+ year old card anyway?

Fritsch reprints were mentioned in the OP.

Originally Posted by nolemmings

What you have is a Larry Fritsch reprint first sold 30+years ago and still available. Your card was purposely scuffed and otherwise made to look like it came from 1916. It did not.

Larry Fritsch was the king of reprints. It's amazing that a regular customer wouldn't know this.

There was nothing nefarious about it, they were sold and usually clearly marked Reprint. Between he and Larry Gelman of Card Collectors Company they produced nice quality reprints largely of sets most collectors couldn't afford.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Huh?! Why would I not be serious?



That's the first mention of Fritsch reprint I've seen in this thread. If you're referring to Larry Fritsch Cards (from whom I've bought), whyever would they have produced a copy of a 100+ year old card anyway?

I mean, Fritsch was right there in the OP, and it's pretty obvious that this is just a reprint and not some Phillipines period pirated item. I'm positive we can all figure out why a reprint of a 100 year old card would be made. How can somebody be a Fritsch customer and not be familiar with the tons of reprints filling their catalogs still to this day? There's no exciting conspiracy here, it's just a Fritsch reprint that has been aged and the "Reprint" stamp removed to try and fool some people.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by G1911

...it's pretty obvious that this is just a reprint and not some Phillipines period pirated item.

Well clearly it wasn't obvious to PSA either and they're in the card grading/authentication business.

Originally Posted by G1911

I'm positive we can all figure out why a reprint of a 100 year old card would be made.

Well it's also pretty obvious to any collector that reprints can/will eventually be passed off as the real thing. Therefore why couldn't a pro such as Larry Fritsch figure that out before reprinting the darn thing? Was he just trying to make a quick buck the consequences be damned? Is that what you're saying?

Originally Posted by G1911

How can somebody be a Fritsch customer and not be familiar with the tons of reprints filling their catalogs still to this day?

A customer(me) from circa 2000 who had no interest in any reprints of pre-WWI cards that might or might not have been in Fritsch's catalog at the time certainly could.

Originally Posted by G1911

There's no exciting conspiracy here, it's just a Fritsch reprint that has been aged and the "Reprint" stamp removed to try and fool some people.

Excuse me but I wasn't positing any "conspiracy". I was just guessing that the card could simply have originated from a knock off printing back in the day. You're the one suggesting that a conspiracy to deceive by removing a reprint stamp and subjecting the card to aging is in evidence here.

The question now is whether PSA will compensate anyone who relied on their "authentication" for any losses they may have sustained purchasing this piece of crap slab.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Well clearly it wasn't obvious to PSA either and they're in the card grading/authentication business.



Well it's also pretty obvious to any collector that reprints can/will eventually be passed off as the real thing. Therefore why couldn't a pro such as Larry Fritsch figure that out before reprinting the darn thing? Was he just trying to make a quick buck the consequences be damned? Is that what you're saying?



A customer(me) from circa 2000 who had no interest in any reprints of pre-WWI cards that might or might not have been in Fritsch's catalog at the time certainly could.



Excuse me but I wasn't positing any "conspiracy". I was just guessing that the card could simply have originated from a knock off printing back in the day. You're the one suggesting that a conspiracy to deceive by removing a reprint stamp and subjecting the card to aging is in evidence here.

The question now is whether PSA will compensate anyone who relied on their "authentication" for any losses they may have sustained purchasing this piece of crap slab.

What I am saying is what I said, in this transcript where no word is left out. If you can read, you will notice that nobody has accused Fritsch of any wrong doing whatsoever, much less creating fakes with an intent for other people to appropriate them to commit fraud. He made clearly marked reprints with other differences that are difficult to mistake for the real thing or the product of a 1916 Phillipines counterfeiting or knockoff ring ripping off worthless American Sporting News pictures (can common sense please enter the equation?). The Fritsch company has been selling them since the 1980's. This exact card has been in their catalog for decades. If this is shocking information to you, oh well.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by G1911

What I am saying is what I said, in this transcript where no word is left out.

Interesting. There's not a single word of yours above. I guess I'll add vision problems to your other "challenges".

Originally Posted by G1911

If you can read, you will notice that nobody has accused Fritsch of any wrong doing whatsoever....

You're very wrong. I did right here:

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Well it's also pretty obvious to any collector that reprints can/will eventually be passed off as the real thing. Therefore why couldn't a pro such as Larry Fritsch figure that out before reprinting the darn thing? Was he just trying to make a quick buck the consequences be damned?

Originally Posted by G1911

He made clearly marked reprints with other differences that are difficult to mistake for the real thing....

Well these Fritsch reprints were obviously not clearly marked enough if one could so readily be "authenticated" by PSA. Either that or PSA isn't very good at doing what they say they do. Take your choice. It's one or the other.

Originally Posted by G1911

...or the product of a 1916 Phillipines counterfeiting or knockoff ring ripping off worthless American Sporting News pictures (can common sense please enter the equation?).

I posited no "counterfeiting ring". Just a Philippines company using cards obtained at minimal cost to help sell its product (probably cigarettes). In case you hadn't noticed, cigarette cards first appeared in 1875. The phenomenon quickly spread across the globe because the cards did indeed increase sales. I'm surprised this needed to be explained to you.

Originally Posted by G1911

The Fritsch company has been selling them since the 1980's. This exact card has been in their catalog for decades. If this is shocking information to you, oh well.

Sorry. I'm not so easily shocked. Only disappointed if the card in question turns out to be one of Fritsch's.

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Well, then go fuck yourself, Mr. Argumentative(G1911).

Well as they say "Practice makes perfect." If G1911 continues to hone his craft, he may eventually rise to mediocrity.