Another PSA mess up? major card - AA to 5

[Johnny630]

I’m sure heritage will do the right thing and pull the card asap.

[The Detroit Collector]

It's at 42K now. I have my doubts this will get pulled.

[Yoda]

Surely somebody at Heritage tunes into Net 54 and has seen this post. I know Pete Calderon does. If Chris Ivy and team don't pull this item with an apology, I think Heritage is sitting on a time bomb.

[G1911]

We just recently collectively determined that hosting fraudulent auctions for cards an auction house run by a criminally convicted fraudster doesn't even have is not only fine but commendable. Even the PWCC fraud ring has had its circle of open defenders and numerous posters who continued to do business with them through it all. Nothing an auction house does is going to make people hold them accountable or suffer a serious backlash, because too many believe that anything that helps increase prices is good. Accountability, transparency, disclosure and honesty is bad for business and can sometimes get in the way of making money, and unless and until that's not priority #1 absolutely nothing will happen. Heritage won't suffer at all if they choose to just ignore this, leave the card up, and make their money off the scam from some rich sucker. Everyone will line right up for the next auction.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by G1911

We just recently collectively determined that hosting fraudulent auctions for cards an auction house run by a criminally convicted fraudster doesn't even have is not only fine but commendable. Even the PWCC fraud ring has had its circle of open defenders and numerous posters who continued to do business with them through it all. Nothing an auction house does is going to make people hold them accountable or suffer a serious backlash, because too many believe that anything that helps increase prices is good. Accountability, transparency, disclosure and honesty is bad for business and can sometimes get in the way of making money, and unless and until that's not priority #1 absolutely nothing will happen. Heritage won't suffer at all if they choose to just ignore this, leave the card up, and make their money off the scam from some rich sucker. Everyone will line right up for the next auction.

No, we never decided the auction was fraudulent. You did that on your own.

Agree though that HA is clean on this. PSA changes their grades all the time. I don't know why they should pull a card from auction just because PSA had second thoughts on thinking a card was altered.

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[Rhotchkiss]

No proof was shown that the card was altered. Indeed, BODA states there are no apparent alterations from the AA to the 5. The issue is with PSA and their terribly inconsistent grading. How can the self-proclaimed experts call the same card, of such significant value and caliber, both a 5 and AA (and apparently a 4)? This is a PSA issue.

I don’t see why Heritage should pull this. It sits in a PSA 5 flip and nobody has provided proof it’s altered. Perhaps they should disclose that it used to sit in an AA flip, but other than proper disclosure/description, I don’t see Heritage having any other obligation (including pulling it)

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

N How can the self-proclaimed experts call the same card, of such significant value and caliber, both a 5 and AA (and apparently a 4)?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

No proof was shown that the card was altered. Indeed, BODA states there are no apparent alterations from the AA to the 5. The issue is with PSA and their terribly inconsistent grading. How can the self-proclaimed experts call the same card, of such significant value and caliber, both a 5 and AA (and apparently a 4)? This is a PSA issue.

I don’t see why Heritage should pull this. It sits in a PSA 5 flip and nobody has provided proof it’s altered. Perhaps they should disclose that it used to sit in an AA flip, but other than proper disclosure/description, I don’t see Heritage having any other obligation (including pulling it)

I agree — but the disclosure needs to be made. And since the card is already bid up without the disclosure they’d need to check with the current bidders if they’re ok with continuing to bid on a card that PSA has graded A at one point (and a lower numeric grade another). Really bad look for PSA but it happens to all grading companies.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I know many instances of people who have submitted the same card multiple times, getting many different grades including altered, before finally getting it into what they considered the right holder. We just saw it on a Nagurski -- the first submitter received an altered, the guy who cracked it out got a 5.5. If anyone ever funded a serious experiment to test consistency of grading, I am sure the results would be disastrous.

Is anyone confident the "altered" here was in fact the correct grade? Is it obvious?

While I don't think grading history generally needs to be disclosed (although of course if asked one should not lie), here it does seem material and so should be disclosed. I would be surprised if it affected the outcome much if at all.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I know many instances of people who have submitted the same card multiple times, getting many different grades including altered, before finally getting it into what they considered the right holder. ...
If anyone ever funded a serious experiment to test consistency of grading, I am sure the results would be disastrous.

I have a fairly large database of grading results for cracked and resubmitted cards that would make most people's jaws drop. I'm not talking about a half point grade difference here or there. I'm talking about mind-blowing incompetence on the level of graders actually throwing darts at a grade board.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

While I don't think grading history generally needs to be disclosed (although of course if asked one should not lie), here it does seem material and so should be disclosed. I would be surprised if it affected the outcome much if at all.

How could it possibly be a material fact that one random guy, who probably had never even seen a vintage card before, under graded a baseball card once upon a time?

In one breath you seem to dial in on the fact that these graders have no clue what they're doing yet in the very next breath you seem to cling to the idea that one random grader's opinion on a Tuesday afternoon in 1997 ought to be remembered.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I agree — but the disclosure needs to be made. And since the card is already bid up without the disclosure they’d need to check with the current bidders if they’re ok with continuing to bid on a card that PSA has graded A at one point (and a lower numeric grade another). Really bad look for PSA but it happens to all grading companies.

Lol. What is there to disclose? The fact that PSA is incompetent?

[Bigdaddy]

In a previous life, I would always look for results that were accurate, reproducible and defensible. How does PSA (or any grader) stack up?

Accurate - Well, we don't have any widely accepted standard on how cards are assigned grades, and even the standards each company has change with time.
So, there is no 'truth' to measure accuracy against.

Reproducible - Many cards get resubbed, some over and over, looking for a bump in grade. If their grades were reproducible, then there would be no desire to resubmit for a better grade.

Defensible - Ever wonder why a certain card received a certain grade? Want to see the grader's notes? Mostly out of luck here.

As some folks said above, this is a PSA problem. However, it becomes a hobby problem when blind trust is placed on a result that is not accurate, cannot be reproduced and is not defensible.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Lol. What is there to disclose? The fact that PSA is incompetent?

I am with you on this one. I have personally had a card go from PSA Authentic Altered do not slab to getting a PSA 8. I have many others but this one was fairly recent.

If you want a real dose of reality go buy 10-20 PSA 10's. Crack them out and resubmit them and see what grades you get.