Greatest Living Player...

[G1911]

There is a decent argument that Pedro Martinez is the greatest peak value pitcher in baseball history. In 2000 he led the AL in ERA with a 1.74. 2nd place was all-time great and cheating Roger Clemens at... 3.70. 5 seasons with an ERA+ over 200, something Koufax and Ryan did 0 times. In context, he dominated the league to a truly historical level.

Johnson and Maddux had better total careers and are very close together. WAR has them essentially tied, which feels about right for once. Maddux was Pedro level dominant in 94/5. I would probably pick Maddux but would not argue Johnson as the greatest living pitcher. Having Clemens/Maddux/Johnson/Pedro all at essentially the same time was a lot of fun to watch.

[TUM301]

Ken Griffey Jr gets my vote with Koufax/Pedro M on the pitching side.

[ClementeFanOh]

Exhibitman- Now that's more along the lines of what you normally write
No doubt, pitchers are a different breed for sure, apples to oranges with
position players.

Someone above stated there's more than being the "greatest" than stats.
That's a wise comment. Seems like these men who have been widely viewed
(not exclusively, widely) as the greatest, are almost viewed as an
ambassador of sorts. Ambassador isn't to be taken literally, but it's the
closest I can get and still make a point. Musial, Mantle, Williams, Aaron,
Mays come to mind- not perfect people, but the standard isn't perfection.
Instead, they come to embody the sport in the minds of many. This is why
the HGH/PED guys don't cut it. Are many of those guys controversial and
talented? Yep? Are any the greatest? Nope. All the parsing in the world
(greenies vs HGH, etc) doesn't remove the patina of sleaze that surrounds
some of those mentioned, and sleaze doesn't equate to greatness- period.

Trent King

[jayshum]

As a Phillies fan, it would be hard for me to argue against Mike Schmidt. However, I could also see Albert Pujols as a possibility. While the second half of his career was certainly nothing special, his overall numbers are impressive.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by G1911

There is a decent argument that Pedro Martinez is the greatest peak value pitcher in baseball history.

You know who we all forgot and who had an ever better single season as a pitcher than Martinez?



In 1972: 12.1 WAR, 27 wins, 1.97 ERA, 41 games started and 30 complete games, 8 shutouts, 310 strikeouts. For a 6th place team that only won 59 games.

Peak WAR on Martinez was 11.7. He appeared in 31 games (29 started) in 2000, completed 7 (4 shutouts).

We are just never again going to see workhorse numbers like the 1960s-1970s pitchers, except maybe from a knuckleball pitcher. That cuts both ways in the argument. Is Pedro better because he worked 25% less than Carlton, or is Carlton better because he sustained his excellence with that workload? Same issue with Koufax-Johnson. Discuss.

[3-2-count]

Bonds. By a landslide.............

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

You know who we all forgot and who had an ever better single season as a pitcher than Martinez?



In 1972: 12.1 WAR, 27 wins, 1.97 ERA, 41 games started and 30 complete games, 8 shutouts, 310 strikeouts. For a 6th place team that only won 59 games.

Peak WAR on Martinez was 11.7. He appeared in 31 games (29 started) in 2000, completed 7 (4 shutouts).

We are just never again going to see workhorse numbers like the 1960s-1970s pitchers, except maybe from a knuckleball pitcher. That cuts both ways in the argument. Is Pedro better because he worked 25% less than Carlton, or is Carlton better because he sustained his excellence with that workload? Same issue with Koufax-Johnson. Discuss.

Personally, I lean to the importance of workload and my interest is more historical than modern. But in context, Pedro dominated to a level Carlton never came close to, which is the argument for Pedro. If the focus is on workload, we must conclude every one of the X best pitching seasons are 19th century.

In 2000, Pedro's 11.7 WAR, is less than Carlton's WAR of 12.1, but within the .5 margin of error WAR advertises. 2nd in the league was 6.2 WAR. His ERA was less than half the 2nd best pitcher in the league.

In 1972, Carlton posted a 1.97. 2nd place was Nolan at 1.99, there were five pitchers other than Carlton sub 2.50. 2nd in WAR was 7.1.

Pedro is not "better because he worked 25% less than Carlton", nobody would ever make such an absurd argument. Both were easily the best pitcher in the league those years, but Pedro's season was contextually better because he annihilated the league.

[packs]

Tarik Skubal is currently 8 - 3 for a Tigers team with 34 total wins.

But my pick for greatest living player is Rickey Henderson. When people talked about Willie being the greatest living player, it was the combination of his 5 tools that gave him that title.

I don't think there's another living player with the five-tool talent of Rickey Henderson. Every generation there's another Mantle, Griffey, Trout, etc. but there will never be another Rickey Henderson. Lots of speed in the world but you still need four other elite skills to get to where he was.

I also disagree with Bonds. Greatest living player doesn't mean best stats or most awards. If you reduce greatest living player to stats and math, then how did Willie Mays end up as greatest living player as long as Bonds is alive? I think it's because those aren't actually the terms people look at the greatest living player in.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by packs

Tarik Skubal is currently 8 - 3 for a Tigers team with 34 total wins.

But my pick for greatest living player is Rickey Henderson. When people talked about Willie being the greatest living player, it was the combination of his 5 tools that gave him that title.

I don't think there's another living player with the five-tool talent of Rickey Henderson. Every generation there's another Mantle, Griffey, Trout, etc. but there will never be another Rickey Henderson. Lots of speed in the world but you still need four other elite skills to get to where he was.

I also disagree with Bonds. Greatest living player doesn't mean best stats or most awards. It means the greatest player that all other players should show deference to in recognition of their abilities and career. I really don't see an argument for anyone showing deference to Bonds. If his stats indicate he's better than Mays, why wasn't it argued he was better than Mays while Mays was still living?

I guess what I'm saying is, if you reduce greatest living player to stats and math, then how did Willie Mays end up as greatest living player as long as Bonds is alive? I think it's because those aren't actually the terms people look at the greatest living player in.

I don't know that I would consider Rickey Henderson to be a 5-tool player if you are using the idea of 5-tools as being hit for average, hit for power, running, fielding and throwing. Rickey clearly had running covered, but he only won a single gold glove, and I don't remember anything being written about his throwing arm being anything special. He was also a career .279 hitter with 297 home runs. While Rickey was clearly a great player, I don't think 5-tool player really describes him.

[G1911]

If Rickey is a 5 tool player, so is Bonds.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by G1911

If Rickey is a 5 tool player, so is Bonds.

Agreed. I'm not sure Bonds had the arm to really be considered a 5-tool player, but he makes it for the other 4 tools (even before PEDs are factored in).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Tarik Skubal is currently 8 - 3 for a Tigers team with 34 total wins.

But my pick for greatest living player is Rickey Henderson. When people talked about Willie being the greatest living player, it was the combination of his 5 tools that gave him that title.

I don't think there's another living player with the five-tool talent of Rickey Henderson. Every generation there's another Mantle, Griffey, Trout, etc. but there will never be another Rickey Henderson. Lots of speed in the world but you still need four other elite skills to get to where he was.

I also disagree with Bonds. Greatest living player doesn't mean best stats or most awards. If you reduce greatest living player to stats and math, then how did Willie Mays end up as greatest living player as long as Bonds is alive? I think it's because those aren't actually the terms people look at the greatest living player in.

Which tool was Griffey lacking?

[packs]

Staying on the field.

I love Griffey more than anyone else in the discussion but he had such an uneven career and he never won. I also don't think there's a lot separating Griffey from Trout, who is also living.

But I don't think we'll ever see another Rickey.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Staying on the field.

I love Griffey more than anyone else in the discussion but he had such an uneven career and he never won. I also don't think there's a lot separating Griffey from Trout, who is also living.

But I don't think we'll ever see another Rickey.

Rickey Henderson was basically league average for the last decade of his career, 104 OPS+.