Greatest Living Player...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bonds and Clemens and ARod, but nobody wants to go there I am sure.

Otherwise, Henderson and Schmidt? Maddux?

[bk400]

I'll second Cal Ripken and add Albert Pujols.

[G1911]

Bonds by a very wide gap. If most popular, someone else, but there’s not much of a reasonable math argument for anyone else as greatest.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by G1911

Bonds by a very wide gap. If most popular, someone else, but there’s not much of a reasonable math argument for anyone else as greatest.

+1. The numbers don't lie, all other considerations excluded. 7 MVPs, 4th in WAR (#1 for position players), 5th in OPS, #1 in HR and Walks, 5th in total bases, and over 500 SB for good measure.

[bk400]

Well, since no one else has gone there yet, I will. If Barry Bonds is the greatest living baseball player, then Lance Armstrong is the greatest living cyclist.

I think any "greatest baseball player" conversation has to define how PEDs are considered.

[maniac_73]

Gotta put Randy Johnson in the convo

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bonds and Clemens and ARod, but nobody wants to go there I am sure.

Otherwise, Henderson and Schmidt? Maddux?

I would say Roger Clemens with Barry Bonds second.

[ClementeFanOh]

PeterSpaeth- Good call on Mike Schmidt. Bad calls otherwise.

BK 400- you are spot on.

Exhibitman- I am shocked by your comment, you are normally a very sound
and lucid thinker. The numbers for Bonds are, in fact, a lie. That's the
problem, he's persona non grata. The fault for that lies with Barry Bonds.

G1911- Once again, a swing and a miss. I'd recommend some HGH and
the clear and the cream, to improve your approach here. Popularity isn't
the measure, Bench and Koufax somehow fly under the radar despite their
greatness. Just as Hulk Hogan actually wasn't the "world's greatest
wrestler", sideshow Barry can't be the world's greatest living player. I am
sure you'll blow a gasket by citing "appeals to authority" and all sorts of
tortuous reasoning, but it won't change the reality that the clown you
champion is a pariah by his own hand. Aroid too, to save you the trouble.
This reply is plenty long so, to cap it off, Frankenstein monsters don't
make the cut- and it's remarkable I even have to say it.

Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

PeterSpaeth- Good call on Mike Schmidt. Bad calls otherwise.

BK 400- you are spot on.

Exhibitman- I am shocked by your comment, you are normally a very sound
and lucid thinker. The numbers for Bonds are, in fact, a lie. That's the
problem, he's persona non grata. The fault for that lies with Barry Bonds.

G1911- Once again, a swing and a miss. I'd recommend some HGH and
the clear and the cream, to improve your approach here. Popularity isn't
the measure, Bench and Koufax somehow fly under the radar despite their
greatness. Just as Hulk Hogan actually wasn't the "world's greatest
wrestler", sideshow Barry can't be the world's greatest living player. I am
sure you'll blow a gasket by citing "appeals to authority" and all sorts of
tortuous reasoning, but it won't change the reality that the clown you
champion is a pariah by his own hand. Aroid too, to save you the trouble.
This reply is plenty long so, to cap it off, Frankenstein monsters don't
make the cut- and it's remarkable I even have to say it.

Trent King

Your personal attacks are off topic. Please stay on topic

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Your personal attacks are off topic. Please stay on topic

It is off topic but funny to read. Just wait for his picks and how the PEDs they took don't count because amphetamines are just like drinking a few cups of coffee. Also all the PEDs done before and after the steroid era do not count. It is just the steroid era PED guys that are bad and need to be punished.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Trent, how is Maddux a bad call? His numbers blow away Ryan and certainly Koufax from a career perspective.

I understand your perspective on steroids.

[ClementeFanOh]

BNorth- you don’t have to wait for my picks, I listed some of them already. The list is consistent with what many others have written. Read the posts…. G1911- Nah, wrong. You complaining about being off topic is 1) wrong and 2) as valid as Bonds complaining that someone cheated against him. This isn’t rocket science, partner. Immediately default to contrarian mode is silly and, in Bonds’ case for “greatest” living player, patently absurd. His “greatness” came from a test tube. Shame, he was a wonderful player without all the deliberate, pervasive, relentless doping. End of story- you do you from here, ok? Trent King

[ClementeFanOh]

PeterSpaeth- I thought you went down the Bonds, Clemens, Aroid road. Bad calls. I’m lukewarm on GM, personally. Don’t hate the idea but feel many others trump him. Trent King

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

BNorth- you don’t have to wait for my picks, I listed some of them already. The list is consistent with what many others have written. Read the posts…. G1911- Nah, wrong. You complaining about being off topic is 1) wrong and 2) as valid as Bonds complaining that someone cheated against him. This isn’t rocket science, partner. Immediately default to contrarian mode is silly and, in Bonds’ case for “greatest” living player, patently absurd. His “greatness” came from a test tube. Shame, he was a wonderful player without all the deliberate, pervasive, relentless doping. End of story- you do you from here, ok? Trent King

With you being very obviously anti PED I assumed your picks was in jest as it is far from PED free.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

BNorth- you don’t have to wait for my picks, I listed some of them already. The list is consistent with what many others have written. Read the posts…. G1911- Nah, wrong. You complaining about being off topic is 1) wrong and 2) as valid as Bonds complaining that someone cheated against him. This isn’t rocket science, partner. Immediately default to contrarian mode is silly and, in Bonds’ case for “greatest” living player, patently absurd. His “greatness” came from a test tube. Shame, he was a wonderful player without all the deliberate, pervasive, relentless doping. End of story- you do you from here, ok? Trent King

Picking Bonds is not contrarian. It is the mathematically obvious choice, and he appears to have more votes so far than anyone else in this thread. It is possible to just make your case in a reasonable way without leaping to the over the top angry posts.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bonds and Clemens and ARod, but nobody wants to go there I am sure.

Actually, I'm good with all three!

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by SyrNy1960

Actually, I'm good with all three!

Wasn't Clemens acquitted of using PEDs in a court of law? So he is under suspicion mostly in the court of public opinion despite s lack of evidence.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by robw1959

Wasn't Clemens acquitted of using PEDs in a court of law? So he is under suspicion mostly in the court of public opinion despite s lack of evidence.

As I recall, the only evidence against Clemens is

1) His trainer's testimony, whose story frequently changed while under pressure from the government to give others up. The only physical evidence McNamee provided was not really evidence at all, as Clemens never denied that McNamee gave him injections of other things, and so the needle itself doesn't prove either man's story. Neither Clemens nor McNamee was consistent.

2) Andy Pettite's also not consistent memory of a conversation in which he believed Clemens said he had tried them.



I believe that in all likelihood Clemens did in fact use them, but the evidence is extremely flimsy, at best. A massive waste of taxpayer money to pursue this loser of a case. His bizarre aging pattern is much more indicative than the testimonial.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

As I recall, the only evidence against Clemens is

1) His trainer's testimony, whose story frequently changed while under pressure from the government to give others up. The only physical evidence McNamee provided was not really evidence at all, as Clemens never denied that McNamee gave him injections of other things, and so the needle itself doesn't prove either man's story. Neither Clemens nor McNamee was consistent.

2) Andy Pettite's also not consistent memory of a conversation in which he believed Clemens said he had tried them.



I believe that in all likelihood Clemens did in fact use them, but the evidence is extremely flimsy, at best. A massive waste of taxpayer money to pursue this loser of a case. His bizarre aging pattern is much more indicative than the testimonial.

There was also the weirdness, and I can't recall if it was part of the trial or separate, where Roger claimed a shipment or delivery to his house of HGH was in fact for Debbie his wife.

For clarity he was not charged with using PEDs, his alleged crime was lying to Congress.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There was also the weirdness, and I can't recall if it was part of the trial or separate, where Roger claimed a shipment or delivery to his house of HGH was in fact for Debbie his wife.

For clarity he was not charged with using PEDs, his alleged crime was lying to Congress.

He was charged with lying to Congress about his PED use, so there must have been some evidence he had used PEDs to bring the charge. I don't remember enough of the details, but the part about a delivery being for his wife sounds familiar. Apparently whatever evidence there was didn't convince a jury since he was acquitted.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There was also the weirdness, and I can't recall if it was part of the trial or separate, where Roger claimed a shipment or delivery to his house of HGH was in fact for Debbie his wife.

For clarity he was not charged with using PEDs, his alleged crime was lying to Congress.

He was charged for perjury regarding denying PED use - i.e. no proof of PED use, no perjury. They had to prove he used PED's, and provided only two real pieces of evidence. One, the testimony of a serial liar who said everything under the sun about Clemens at different points when different things benefited him, and 2 Pettite's testimony who admitted on cross that there was a 50-50 chance he had misheard or misunderstood Clemens. They had absolutely nothing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

He was charged for perjury regarding denying PED use - i.e. no proof of PED use, no perjury. They had to prove he used PED's, and provided only two real pieces of evidence. One, the testimony of a serial liar who said everything under the sun about Clemens at different points when different things benefited him, and 2 Pettite's testimony who admitted on cross that there was a 50-50 chance he had misheard or misunderstood Clemens. They had absolutely nothing.

One of the weaker prosecutions in memory, for sure. The witnesses were disasters. If your burden is to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt, you need to do better than that.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There was also the weirdness, and I can't recall if it was part of the trial or separate, where Roger claimed a shipment or delivery to his house of HGH was in fact for Debbie his wife.

For clarity he was not charged with using PEDs, his alleged crime was lying to Congress.

As a Clemens fan it was hard to watch. Luckily I don't care what my sports heroes are like in real life. I am a fan because of what they do/have done in the sport. I also truly understand they ALL cheat(ed) anyway possible to make and keep their insanely high paying job.

[bigfanNY]

If Mays had passed away 5 years ago I might understand the arguments against Bonds. But in those 5 years Bud Selig and David Ortiz were both elected into the Hall of Fame. So saying the PED's make any player Persona non grata etc. Carries no weight. I am old enough to have seen Mantle Once..Mays at least 5 times same with Aaron, The early 70's O's the Mid 70's Reds Schmidt. But Bonds on the field and more importantly in the box was just head and shoulders above any of them. I would travel to Philly and Shea just to see him. He was clearly the Best Baseball Player I ever saw. Never mind the MVP's the stats etc. Watching how pitchers entire teams changed how they played when they faced him. It was a pleasure and a privilege to watch.