1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by molenick

Brian clearly has a strongly held and unshakeable belief that the Herpolsheimer's cards are not real.

So maybe he can clarify why the 1921 Standard Biscuit Davenport card he owns is real (see post 182) and the Davenport in the LOTG auction is fake (see below).

They are both graded by PSA, have no address on the back, and have a border pattern on the back inferior to the Holsum Bread pattern. In all seriousness, is there something I am missing here? Is there any more to it than "a dealer in 1999 told me the Herpolsheimer's are fake"?

If you are a printer-and complete disclosure here beyond any need-and my uncle was one, you can get access to the proper paper for a fraud. That includes timeframe and type. Not difficult in either circumstance. Just so we're clear here, this subject never came up between my uncle and myself. He is deceased but was living past the time of the May 1999 meeting at the Robert Morris show with the dealer.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

If you are a printer-and complete disclosure here beyond any need-and my uncle was one, you can get access to the proper paper for a fraud. That includes timeframe and type. Not difficult in either circumstance. Just so we're clear here, this subject never came up between my uncle and myself. He is deceased but was living past the time of the May 1999 meeting at the Robert Morris show with the dealer.

So you're saying the subject never came up between you and your uncle? If you said your uncle was a printer and thought the cards were a fraud, that at least would be one other opinion. But I don't think you are saying that.

I think you are saying that the cards could be a fraud because a printer could come up with paper to use to make fake cards. Actually, I think you are saying the cards are a fraud because it is possible to access paper to commit a fraud. I think by that logic, every card that exists could be a fraud.

I have a ten dollar bill in my wallet. It is possible for someone to make counterfeit ten dollars bills. That does not mean my ten dollar bill is counterfeit.

I am also not clear what distinguishes your 1921 Standard Biscuit Davenport as being real and the LOTG Herpolsheimer's Davenport as being fake. By your logic, they both could be fake.

[I am not sure why I keep trying to have a logical discussion when I think Brian is just messing with us at this point.]

[RCMcKenzie]

That's why I was asking him earlier in this thread if he knew something we don't. Like he and his cousin watched his cousin's stepdad make these in the 70's. People did make repros in the 70's. I no longer am concerned about it and he is free to believe what he wants.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by molenick

So you're saying the subject never came up between you and your uncle? If you said your uncle was a printer and thought the cards were a fraud, that at least would be one other opinion. But I don't think you are saying that.

I think you are saying that the cards could be a fraud because a printer could come up with paper to use to make fake cards. Actually, I think you are saying the cards are a fraud because it is possible to access paper to commit a fraud. I think by that logic, every card that exists could be a fraud.

I have a ten dollar bill in my wallet. It is possible for someone to make counterfeit ten dollars bills. That does not mean my ten dollar bill is counterfeit.

I am also not clear what distinguishes your 1921 Standard Biscuit Davenport as being real and the LOTG Herpolsheimer's Davenport as being fake. By your logic, they both could be fake.

[I am not sure why I keep trying to have a logical discussion when I think Brian is just messing with us at this point.]

Michael,

Forgive me, but I am getting carpal tunnel from LOL! Not messing with you, but HIGHLY enjoying this thread.

I met the dealer in May 1999 and he told me with his hand going over the cards that they were not real and made in the 1970's. I also handled the cards with concern about the design which looked like, in my opinion, something influenced by the disco era, but I digress.

On my uncle, I simply mentioned him because of complete disclosure on my side.

To follow up on your one paragraph:

"I think you are saying that the cards could be a fraud because a printer could come up with paper to use to make fake cards. Actually, I think you are saying the cards are a fraud because it is possible to access paper to commit a fraud. I think by that logic, every card that exists could be a fraud."

Right now, it is a printer by trade and not a computer printer. As time goes on old (the type of paper) will meet up with the new/evolving with Artificial Intelligence. And in some auctions, Love of the Game not included, there will be shill bidding to boot.

Both of the Davenports I have from 1921 (Holsum Bread and Standard Biscuit) are original. The only thing about the 1970's Herpolsheimer is that it is possible that the printer who made the cards was inspired by ad border design and updated to disco floor.

Now, to converse with your subconscious in brackets. There are always two sides to a matter.

I'm entertained, but not buying it or the "1921" (not) Herpolsheimer's cards.

[rhettyeakley]

The weird part about your theory of fake cards Brian is...

the subjects included in the "fake" Herpolsheimer cards line up perfectly with the D350 Standard Biscuit and Holsum Bread (Type 2) set perfectly as VERY early 1921 sets and pre-date the earliest version of the E121 Series 80 set because by the time the E121-80 set was printed many of the "dropped" cards had been eliminated from the lineup.

WHAT MAKES THIS INTERESTING?

This knowledge is only known by me and a handful of other people in the entire world and was known by nobody in the 1970's.

And, when I say they line up perfectly...I mean there are 0 outliers! There is not a single mistake made in the Herpolsheimer's checklist and includes copies of cards that were not known to exist in the "E121 family of sets" in the 1970's...like the Davenport card (which is only included in the sets listed above and 1-2 copies in the world as a W575-1)

With all due respect you are being ridiculous about this subject and you seem to really have a hard time with admitting when you are wrong.

I am done with this conversation at this point and would advise everyone to stop "feeding the troll" as Brian is obviously not looking at anything here objectively and is (I can only imagine at this point) is somehow getting pleasure from his troll behavior.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

The weird part about your theory of fake cards Brian is...

the subjects included in the "fake" Herpolsheimer cards line up perfectly with the D350 Standard Biscuit and Holsum Bread (Type 2) set perfectly as VERY early 1921 sets and pre-date the earliest version of the E121 Series 80 set because by the time the E121-80 set was printed many of the "dropped" cards had been eliminated from the lineup.

WHAT MAKES THIS INTERESTING?

This knowledge is only known by me and a handful of other people in the entire world and was known by nobody in the 1970's.

And, when I say they line up perfectly...I mean there are 0 outliers! There is not a single mistake made in the Herpolsheimer's checklist and includes copies of cards that were not known to exist in the "E121 family of sets" in the 1970's...like the Davenport card (which is only included in the sets listed above and 1-2 copies in the world as a W575-1)

With all due respect you are being ridiculous about this subject and you seem to really have a hard time with admitting when you are wrong.

I am done with this conversation at this point and would advise everyone to stop "feeding the troll" as Brian is obviously not looking at anything here objectively and is (I can only imagine at this point) is somehow getting pleasure from his troll behavior.

LOL!

Thank you for feeding me, Rhett.

Now, Peckinpaugh/Peckinbaugh. Let's hear the response.

Happy Holidays

[StraightRaceCards]

I’ve never seen Herpolsheimers cards until this thread. Very cool!

As a quick aside, was watching the Polar Express with my kids and the kids on the train yell, “Herpolsheimers!!!”

It made me laugh out loud, hope everyone has a great Christmas season!

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread…

Now, back to arguing about the authenticity of the cards, ha!

[Brian Van Horn]

Matt,

Happy Holidays to you as well.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

If you are a printer-and complete disclosure here beyond any need-and my uncle was one, you can get access to the proper paper for a fraud. That includes timeframe and type. Not difficult in either circumstance. Just so we're clear here, this subject never came up between my uncle and myself. He is deceased but was living past the time of the May 1999 meeting at the Robert Morris show with the dealer.

LOL, ANYBODY with a library card can get the proper paper. Thing is new printing on old paper is very easy to see if you know what to look for. For complete disclosure I know a little more than the average person about printing.

Don't get me wrong I know for a fact there are a ton of amazing counterfeits out there. Take any picture to any printer and they can make as many perfect copies as you want. There is NO reason this can't just as easily be done with simple baseball cards. Now it actually happening is a very rare thing for a LOT of reasons.