1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

[hcv123]

The attached card will be offered in the next Memory Lane auction. I'm not super familiar with the history on these, but this example was a lone example from a large eclectic collection. I see no evidence of any kind of erasure. It was originally mislabeled by PSA without the Herpolsheimer designation and was recently corrected. If there was only a single Collins example from the original find and a single example from the recent find, then this was not from either.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by hcv123

The attached card will be offered in the next Memory Lane auction. I'm not super familiar with the history on these, but this example was a lone example from a large eclectic collection. I see no evidence of any kind of erasure. It was originally mislabeled by PSA without the Herpolsheimer designation and was recently corrected. If there was only a single Collins example from the original find and a single example from the recent find, then this was not from either.

Now there's a plot twist.

[Brian Van Horn]

Howard,

The best to you with the auction. Obviously I will not be bidding.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Brian Van Horn

[Brian Van Horn]

Howard,

I have a question. How is it PSA listed the Collins under series of 80?

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Howard,

I have a question. How is it PSA listed the Collins under series of 80?

They incorrectly labeled it as an E121 series of 80.

[terjung]

Perhaps the most interesting thing about that Collins to me is the presence of what appears to be a wet sheet transfer on the front.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by terjung

Perhaps the most interesting thing about that Collins to me is the presence of what appears to be a wet sheet transfer on the front.

Many (I did not check all of them) of the LOTG cards have what looks like a wet sheet transfer on the front. Is that an indicator of something? I am not clear if that is an argument for them being real or being fake.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by hcv123

The attached card will be offered in the next Memory Lane auction. I'm not super familiar with the history on these, but this example was a lone example from a large eclectic collection. I see no evidence of any kind of erasure. It was originally mislabeled by PSA without the Herpolsheimer designation and was recently corrected. If there was only a single Collins example from the original find and a single example from the recent find, then this was not from either.

Howard, I would be curious to know what you can tell us about the date you acquired this and whether it was already graded. The Herps Collins sold by Legendary looks very much like the card you show-- on the front anyway (big writing on the back).

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Howard, I would be curious to know what you can tell us about the date you acquired this and whether it was already graded. The Herps Collins sold by Legendary looks very much like the card you show-- on the front anyway (big writing on the back).

I got the card in September. It was in the holder I pictured - incorrectly labeled as an E121 and not identified as a Herpolsheimer. I had PSA correct it (I don't think I have a pic of the corrected holder). I am not sure how long the collector I got it from had it. VCP does show a sale of it on June 7, 2006 by "ManontheRock".

Can you post a pic of the Legendary example to compare? Or email to me at hcv123@att.net if you aren't comfortable posting.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I got the card in September. It was in the holder I pictured - incorrectly labeled as an E121 and not identified as a Herpolsheimer. I had PSA correct it (I don't think I have a pic of the corrected holder). I am not sure how long the collector I got it from had it. VCP does show a sale of it on June 7, 2006 by "ManontheRock".

Can you post a pic of the Legendary example to compare? Or email to me at hcv123@att.net if you aren't comfortable posting.

How could a grading company, still number 1 in the industry in terms of volume and cards graded, make such a pathetic error by both misidentifying the set and excluding the advertiser. Where is the quality control?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Yoda

How could a grading company, still number 1 in the industry in terms of volume and cards graded, make such a pathetic error by both misidentifying the set and excluding the advertiser. Where is the quality control?

John, all I can say and as you likely already know, it happens frequently. You can still find many instances of 1916 cards labeled as Sporting News whether the back is blank or carries another advertiser's back--including Herpolsheimer. Granted, I doubt that occurs much any longer.

In defense of PSA (I can't believe I'm saying this), the set is obscure and was probably not in their database as a recognized set when the card was first submitted, so they gave it the more blanket E121 designation, much like they did with the 1916 cards.

[calvindog]

I'm surprised there's still any discussion about the authenticity of these cards. If you handle them raw, there would be no question that they are real. We've all seen and handled fake cards. These aren't fake. Also, are the 1916 Herpos also believed to be fake? Or just 1921?

[Brian Van Horn]

Jeffrey,

Just the 1921.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Brian Van Horn

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

John, all I can say and as you likely already know, it happens frequently. You can still find many instances of 1916 cards labeled as Sporting News whether the back is blank or carries another advertiser's back--including Herpolsheimer. Granted, I doubt that occurs much any longer.

In defense of PSA (I can't believe I'm saying this), the set is obscure and was probably not in their database as a recognized set when the card was first submitted, so they gave it the more blanket E121 designation, much like they did with the 1916 cards.

Todd, fair enough. Mustn't grumble about TPG'ers on Thanksgiving Day. I will wait until Xmas. Humbug.

[G1911]

A dealer doesn't have incentive to claim a card they are selling is not real. However, it does happen. I've been a beneficiary of it it happening, a dealer described a series of particularly valuable proof sheets in my tobacco boxing niche as "early reprints". They were not early reprints at all (there has never been any fake or reprint, 1 of the cards in it was unknown to exist until 2006 and thus could not really have been counterfeited long ago, and in hand the items are clearly genuine proof sheets and not fakes after thorough examination).

The claim doesn't dictate the result. A thing is not true or false because someone says it is true or false; it is actually true or actually false. We would never believe a card is real just because the person selling it says it is real; same idea.

[Snapolit1]

I think the threadbare to non-existent case for counterfeit just took another hit.

https://loveofthegameauctions.com/an...ST_EMAIL_ID%5D

[Snapolit1]

What I'm not getting here, is obviously the issue existed, as per contemperanous advertisements.

So even if the dude was right that he handed Brian a stack of counterfeit cards, which none of us can prove or disprove at this point, where is the proof that these are the same cards that have now come to market? Zero, none, zip, nada.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I think the threadbare to non-existent case for counterfeit just took another hit.

https://loveofthegameauctions.com/an...ST_EMAIL_ID%5D

The conclusion is that Herpolsheimer offered 1921 E121s at their store. What is not included is the back of the card which is interesting. Understood that the first ad wouldn't include the back because negotiations were probably under way. The second one, however, should leave you asking if this back was produced why didn't Herpolsheimer ever put in their advertisement? A back mentioning Herpolsheimer in a Herpolsheimer advertisement. Self promotion in an advertisement. What a concept? Epiphany!!!!

[Casey2296]

This is why I love Net54, we've learned more about these cards in the last 24 hours than was previously known.
Props to Steve for his detective work and props to Al Crisafulli for his classy response to what was, at best, an ill-timed baseless accusation of forgery of 39 cards in his auction that is closing tonight.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I got the card in September. It was in the holder I pictured - incorrectly labeled as an E121 and not identified as a Herpolsheimer. I had PSA correct it (I don't think I have a pic of the corrected holder). I am not sure how long the collector I got it from had it. VCP does show a sale of it on June 7, 2006 by "ManontheRock".

Can you post a pic of the Legendary example to compare? Or email to me at hcv123@att.net if you aren't comfortable posting.

Howard, I've got cooking duty but will try and post a pic by tomorrow. Maybe you can pull the sale from VCP, unless it was part of a lot sale that VCP doesn't cover. The Collins Herp was in a Legendary auction that I entered into my database in March 2015. My link to the auction is no longer good, as I believe Legendary archives were sold or otherwise went kaput. I screenshot the auction pics at the time and they are sadly small, but I will post what I can. The serial number on the PSA 6MK Herps Collins is 90406430.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by hcv123

VCP does show a sale of it on June 7, 2006 by "ManontheRock".

I think that used to be Charlie Barokas' handle. Haven't seen him in a while. Don't know if he's still active.

[Schlesinj]

Buys & Sells lots of type 1 photos on eBay.

[CW]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I got the card in September. It was in the holder I pictured - incorrectly labeled as an E121 and not identified as a Herpolsheimer. I had PSA correct it (I don't think I have a pic of the corrected holder). I am not sure how long the collector I got it from had it. VCP does show a sale of it on June 7, 2006 by "ManontheRock".

Can you post a pic of the Legendary example to compare? Or email to me at hcv123@att.net if you aren't comfortable posting.

Not the best image, but PSA has new high resolution images of the Eddie Collins card on their cert verification site:

https://www.psacard.com/cert/50067761

[Exhibitman]

Seems to me that if you haven't held the cards in hand and gone over them, you have no real basis to opine on their authenticity. had a situation recently where I purchased a rare PCL card that looked wrong when I got it in hand and was able to pin down its counterfeit origins (with the help of Mark M.) and get a refund. I could not tell just seeing pictures, I had to have it in hand and compare it with others to see what was wrong with it. That isn't what I am reading here. "Someone told me" is not only hearsay, it would be laughed out of court as the basis for expert opinion. Multiple experts with hands-on experience have seen these cards and are confident they are genuine. That, to me, is far more persuasive than hearsay. I Absent that hands-on experience, arguing these cards are fakes seems pointless and, frankly, unfair to Al and everyone else who put in the work behind this auction. Unless there is something more, "someone told me they are fakes" is a POV that adds nothing substantive to the discussion.

[Steve D]

Here's an ad from the June 1, 1921 Grand Rapids Press (I found it on Genealogybank.com):

The cards in the ad are Cobb, Ruth, Speaker, Hornsby, Sisler, Johnson and Wally Schang.

Steve

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Here's an ad from the June 1, 1921 Grand Rapids Press (I found it on Genealogybank.com):

The cards in the ad are Cobb, Ruth, Speaker, Hornsby, Sisler, Johnson and Wally Schang.

Steve

No address Steve, must be fake.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Here's an ad from the June 1, 1921 Grand Rapids Press (I found it on Genealogybank.com):

The cards in the ad are Cobb, Ruth, Speaker, Hornsby, Sisler, Johnson and Wally Schang.

Steve

Clearly a clever attempt by the counterfeiter to change the historical record to make the cards appear legitimate...

(please note the lack of an availble sarcasm font)

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by aquarian sports cards

clearly a clever attempt by the counterfeiter to change the historical record to make the cards appear legitimate...

(please note the lack of an availble sarcasm font)

lol!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

lol!

This is the only guy here who shouldn't be laughing

[slidekellyslide]

Here is a postcard of Herpolsheimer’s from around 1910. No address on the front or back of the card. They simply felt they didn’t need to put their address out there on advertisements.

[Steve D]

Another ad from the Apr 15, 1921 Grand Rapids Press:

Steve

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Another ad from the Apr 15, 1921 Grand Rapids Press:

Steve

The primary sources from 1921 are probably fakes planted by aliens or something

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

The primary sources from 1921 are probably fakes planted by aliens or something

Now that is just silly. Everyone knows aliens have not arrived on Earth yet. My inside source says it is a family of Bigfoot operating out of Oregon. Supposedly they have put enough high end counterfeit cards into the hobby they would sink a large boat.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Another ad from the Apr 15, 1921 Grand Rapids Press:

Steve

https://www.genealogybank.com/doc/ne...50D737BB8BF039

From Genealogy Bank

We're sorry, we can't find this page.
Still have questions? Please visit our FAQ to learn more.

[Steve D]

All this just reminds me of the story of one of the five 1913 Liberty Nickels.

Back in 1962, the owner of the coin, George Walton, was killed in a car crash. The coin was later consigned to Stacks Auctions, one of the leading numismatic auction houses of the day (and still today). Stacks misidentified the coin as a counterfeit, and returned it to the Walton family.

Then in 2003, the family rediscovered the coin, and took it to the American Numismatics Association convention that year in Baltimore. It was examined by a panel of experts, and found to actually be authentic.

It subsequently sold for $4.2M last year.

So, the point is, even "experts" do make mistakes; and authentic items are wrongly deemed fake, or otherwise not authentic.

Steve

[robertsmithnocure]

I have gone down the Herporlsheimer rabbit hole and I find it very hard to believe that they are not real. Some of the most knowledgeable collectors and dealers have concluded that they are real.

Dan McKee
Leon Luckey
Rhett Yeakley
Kevin Struss
Frank Ward
Brian Weisner
Todd Schultz
Al Cristafulli
Jeff Lichtman
Howard Chasser

I respect Brian Van Horn's opinion, but I find it hard to believe that all of these experts are wrong.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Seems to me that if you haven't held the cards in hand and gone over them, you have no real basis to opine on their authenticity. had a situation recently where I purchased a rare PCL card that looked wrong when I got it in hand and was able to pin down its counterfeit origins (with the help of Mark M.) and get a refund. I could not tell just seeing pictures, I had to have it in hand and compare it with others to see what was wrong with it. That isn't what I am reading here. "Someone told me" is not only hearsay, it would be laughed out of court as the basis for expert opinion. Multiple experts with hands-on experience have seen these cards and are confident they are genuine. That, to me, is far more persuasive than hearsay. I Absent that hands-on experience, arguing these cards are fakes seems pointless and, frankly, unfair to Al and everyone else who put in the work behind this auction. Unless there is something more, "someone told me they are fakes" is a POV that adds nothing substantive to the discussion.

Adam,

I did hold some of the cards in my hands at Robert Morris in May 1999. With the marking of $1.00 on some of the cards, I still considered a purchase.