Same SGC 7 Mantle Sold 4 times in 15 months

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Not on PWCC. They only list sales that get paid for.

How do you know?

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How do you know?

Yeah, valid question. Here’s a card that I was following a few weeks ago that “sold” and is represented as such currently in their history. Now it is live again on their weekly. Does seem like it almost went certainly unpaid for, unless someone just loves the thrill of the flip gamble.

ETA: Maybe they clean these things up eventually.

[Fred]

I'm still trying to understand why anybody would want to keep their cards in a "vault" unless they plan to resell it (and probably quickly). If you're a hobbyist/collector, why would you not want to have your cardboard in your hands?

What happens if the business that maintains possession of the card(s) loses the card? I realize that would be the last thing a business wants because then everyone would be scrambling to get their stuff out of the vault. Have there been many high profile cases of a vault company losing a card?

It seems this type of business model would be great for a flipper. But there also seems to be a lot of potential for monkey business.

How many vault businesses are there? The way I see it, if fleabay (I believe they have a vault service) drops out of the vault business, then it means there's a legitimate sustainability issue for the business model because they are a publicly traded company with potential for a lot of blow back if any monkey business is found out for them.

When I see fleabay get out of the vault business, then that will tell me the business model is probably flawed and that the other businesses are potentially/possibly/probably involved in some shady practices. For now I'm of the opinion that this vault venture is like anything else, you get the wrong element in it and you have recipe for fraud and abuse.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by Fred

I'm still trying to understand why anybody would want to keep their cards in a "vault" unless they plan to resell it (and probably quickly). If you're a hobbyist/collector, why would you not want to have your cardboard in your hands?

Almost everyone I know that uses vault services are either flippers, engaging in tax avoidance, or they're bidding low on a bunch of stuff they don't really want and vaulting them to flip later...not as many on the 3rd point as the first 2.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

Yeah, valid question. Here’s a card that I was following a few weeks ago that “sold” and is represented as such currently in their history. Now it is live again on their weekly. Does seem like it almost went certainly unpaid for, unless someone just loves the thrill of the flip gamble.

ETA: Maybe they clean these things up eventually.

Something that happens quite regularly in this hobby is people looking for arbitrage opportunities. Vintage cards in BVG holders are often sold to someone hoping to cross it over to PSA or SGC and then flip it for a profit. I see this regularly on social media platforms, guys (often modern collectors) trying to move over to vintage land and attempting to bring their "flip game" with them. Most end collectors avoid cards in BVG slabs. At least in general. Surely there are some exceptions. But when I see a vintage BVG card being bought and resold shortly after, it does not raise any red flags to me, as that is easily explained by someone hoping to cross it over to PSA and PSA subsequently rejecting it. After which, they just try to cut their losses and resell it.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How do you know?

Betsy told me directly that sales only get posted once they get paid for. I also have a few friends who work there, and we've had these discussions multiple times. When a crazy sale happens, I try to get the inside scoop on whether or not it gets paid for. Whenever one doesn't get paid for it doesn't show up on their sold listings search results. Also, as I consigner, I can confirm this to be the case. I've had two cards not get paid for there since they launched their platform (and dozens that were paid for). As soon as a card gets paid for, I can see a change in my accounting page and then I can find it in their sales history page. But for the cards that went unpaid, they never showed up on the sales history page (I know because I kept checking because I was relying on those proceeds to fund another big purchase).

Is it possible that someone high up at PWCC could manipulate the system and fake a sale through a manual override? Sure, it's possible. If someone has direct access to the database, they could create an entry. But that's not how their system is set up by default. And I don't see any reason to assume that this is happening without evidence. And seeing a sale that seems high in retrospect, but which actually aligns perfectly with where the broader market was at the time, is not evidence.

[Snapolit1]

Refusing to leap to assumptions that are unsupported by evidence is very out of vogue these days.

Originally Posted by Snowman

Betsy told me directly that sales only get posted once they get paid for. I also have a few friends who work there, and we've had these discussions multiple times. When a crazy sale happens, I try to get the inside scoop on whether or not it gets paid for. Whenever one doesn't get paid for it doesn't show up on their sold listings search results. Also, as I consigner, I can confirm this to be the case. I've had two cards not get paid for there since they launched their platform (and dozens that were paid for). As soon as a card gets paid for, I can see a change in my accounting page and then I can find it in their sales history page. But for the cards that went unpaid, they never showed up on the sales history page (I know because I kept checking because I was relying on those proceeds to fund another big purchase).

Is it possible that someone high up at PWCC could manipulate the system and fake a sale through a manual override? Sure, it's possible. If someone has direct access to the database, they could create an entry. But that's not how their system is set up by default. And I don't see any reason to assume that this is happening without evidence. And seeing a sale that seems high in retrospect, but which actually aligns perfectly with where the broader market was at the time, is not evidence.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Betsy told me directly that sales only get posted once they get paid for. I also have a few friends who work there, and we've had these discussions multiple times. When a crazy sale happens, I try to get the inside scoop on whether or not it gets paid for. Whenever one doesn't get paid for it doesn't show up on their sold listings search results. Also, as I consigner, I can confirm this to be the case. I've had two cards not get paid for there since they launched their platform (and dozens that were paid for). As soon as a card gets paid for, I can see a change in my accounting page and then I can find it in their sales history page. But for the cards that went unpaid, they never showed up on the sales history page (I know because I kept checking because I was relying on those proceeds to fund another big purchase).

Is it possible that someone high up at PWCC could manipulate the system and fake a sale through a manual override? Sure, it's possible. If someone has direct access to the database, they could create an entry. But that's not how their system is set up by default. And I don't see any reason to assume that this is happening without evidence. And seeing a sale that seems high in retrospect, but which actually aligns perfectly with where the broader market was at the time, is not evidence.

Of course Betsy is going to tell you that. You trust Betsy? Of course people who work there are not going to admit to fake sales. You should revise your post to, PWCC told me they don't do that.

[Johnny630]

Well here is another one by our PWCC….

1953 Topps Willie Mays SGC 8 sale reported by vcp $186,000 4/13

Now Same Card 2 weeks ago less than 6 months apart same card sells in PWCC for $99,000 so you tell me ??? Did the card drop $87,000 in less then six months or Was the first sale Puff and Fluff .

How long before you see this back up for sale this time it could be punted to another major or what the hell they may try it again…

Thoughts ��

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

man those are some narrow borders on that Mays...

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

man those are some narrow borders on that Mays...

I just don't see that. To me the picture looks a little big.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Yeah, the market really has dropped that much on some cards. I can’t say that those results are not believable.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I just don't see that. To me the picture looks a little big.

Looking at other examples I'm probably just being paranoid, but that was my first impression.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

man those are some narrow borders on that Mays...

It could be trimmed, but I wouldn't say necessarily. The Mays in particular has extremely narrow borders to begin with in comparison to the rest of the set.

[Johnny630]

Mays borders are fine, the card is beautiful, to me it’s a strong Nrmt-Mint properly graded 8. It’s the second sale that was not reported that was the thrust of my post.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It could be trimmed, but I wouldn't say necessarily. The Mays in particular has extremely narrow borders to begin with in comparison to the rest of the set.

that's the reason for my follow up post. I went and looked at some examples and noticed the thinner than normal borders even on 1's and 2's

[Bcwcardz]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Well here is another one by our PWCC….

1953 Topps Willie Mays SGC 8 sale reported by vcp $186,000 4/13

Now Same Card 2 weeks ago less than 6 months apart same card sells in PWCC for $99,000 so you tell me ??? Did the card drop $87,000 in less then six months or Was the first sale Puff and Fluff .

How long before you see this back up for sale this time it could be punted to another major or what the hell they may try it again…

Thoughts ��

I don’t believe either of these sales nor many of these 6 figure sales. There are so much shenanigans going on with this kind of things . You can’t keep up with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course Betsy is going to tell you that. You trust Betsy? Of course people who work there are not going to admit to fake sales. You should revise your post to, PWCC told me they don't do that.

Not that religion matters, but one of my friends who works there is a Mormon. I'm not religious, but in my experience, most Mormons care deeply about their integrity. And I would put his integrity over anyone else's I've met in this hobby. And he's had numerous opportunities to be able to prove himself otherwise, yet never took one.

Also, perhaps you missed the part of my post where I said I also witnessed this fact firsthand from my own sales history. When my cards went unpaid for, they did not show up in the sales history section of the website. Cards do not post there until paid for. I can attest that this is true firsthand.