The trend in Wagner cards

[Prof]

Originally Posted by raulus

Maybe said another way, the person (or persons) who inherit the assets will step up their basis to fair market value on the date they inherit. So if you bought it for $100, and then die when it's worth $1,000,000, your heirs will have a basis of $1,000,000.

So if they sell right away, in theory there should be no gain or loss, because the sales price should be equal to the fair market value ($1,000,000 in this case), which is their basis.

If they wait to sell, then any appreciation after that date would be taxed when they choose to sell. I suppose the recipient could also choose to pass it down again when they die, in which case it gets stepped up again, at least under current law.

A few years ago, there was a proposal to start to tax gains that hadn't been taxed in the last 90 years. But that proposal hasn't gone anywhere so far, so in theory the inheritance tax benefit process could continue for as long as your heirs continue to not need the money.

Hypothetically, do you know what the process would be like here?

- A person dies, and an old photo album gets distributed to a relative. Basically, "Hey, we're cleaning out the house. You want this?"
- Nobody searches through it for 10 years.
- Finally, they look through it, and find a T206 Doyle error card glued to a page.
- They consign and sell the card for 1 million.

Is there like a retroactive appraisal assessment for when the person received the album 10 years ago? Then, you subtract that 10-year-old value from the 1 million, and that's what you pay the gains on?

Or are you just paying on the 1 million since it was never appraised at the time?

-

And what about if the item was truly unique to the hobby with no past market value?

If there was a retroactive appraisal, would they just pull an educated estimate out of their butts that was smaller than the present day value from selling it?


(Sorry if this is derailing the thread a bit.)



Back on topic, Wagners are cool. I wish I had one.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Prof

Hypothetically, do you know what the process would be like here?

- A person dies, and an old photo album gets distributed to a relative. Basically, "Hey, we're cleaning out the house. You want this?"
- Nobody searches through it for 10 years.
- Finally, they look through it, and find a T206 Doyle error card glued to a page.
- They consign and sell the card for 1 million.

Is there like a retroactive appraisal assessment for when the person received the album 10 years ago? Then, you subtract that 10-year-old value from the 1 million, and that's what you pay the gains on?

Or are you just paying on the 1 million since it was never appraised at the time?

-

And what about if the item was truly unique to the hobby with no past market value?

If there was a retroactive appraisal, would they just pull an educated estimate out of their butts that was smaller than the present day value from selling it?


(Sorry if this is derailing the thread a bit.)



Back on topic, Wagners are cool. I wish I had one.

"Is there like a retroactive appraisal assessment for when the person received the album 10 years ago? Then, you subtract that 10-year-old value from the 1 million, and that's what you pay the gains on?"

I believe this is correct, although I'm not a trust/estate attorney I did stay at a Holiday in Express last night...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

"Is there like a retroactive appraisal assessment for when the person received the album 10 years ago? Then, you subtract that 10-year-old value from the 1 million, and that's what you pay the gains on?"

I believe this is correct, although I'm not a trust/estate attorney I did stay at a Holiday in Express last night...

Right, the question is the step up basis at time of transfer, and where there is no contemporaneous appraisal or documentation, one would need to do a good faith estimate based on whatever information is reasonably available.

[Rhotchkiss]

Back to the OP, which is whether the recent surge in Wagner prices is sustainable, as it could impact one’s decision whether to sell an M116 Blue Wagner….

Personally, I think Wagner cards, along with numerous other pre war players, have been very undervalued for a long time, and I think the recent surge is a reflection of that. Additionally, I think Wagner, for the reasons stated earlier, is in a unique group of transcendent players, who will remain desirable to future generations (Ruth, Cobb, Jackson, Gehrig, Mantle, Mays, Robinson, Aaron). Add the relative rarity of Wagner cards (100+ years old, played a bulk of his career in the early 1900s before the rise of most T, D, and E cards, and very few tobacco issues), and I think you have a nice recipe for stability and perhaps additional appreciation. One last factor is that, I bet, most people buying Wagners at these prices can afford to hold them, which means there is unlikely to be a dumping of Wagner cards that leads to a value spiral.

Now, the question of whether now is the time to sell…? That is personal question that I think depends principally on whether you have a better use for the after-tax proceeds.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Back to the OP, which is whether the recent surge in Wagner prices is sustainable, as it could impact one’s decision whether to sell an M116 Blue Wagner….

Personally, I think Wagner cards, along with numerous other pre war players, have been very undervalued for a long time, and I think the recent surge is a reflection of that. Additionally, I think Wagner, for the reasons stated earlier, is in a unique group of transcendent players, who will remain desirable to future generations (Ruth, Cobb, Jackson, Gehrig, Mantle, Mays, Robinson, Aaron). Add the relative rarity of Wagner cards (100+ years old, played a bulk of his career in the early 1900s before the rise of most T, D, and E cards, and very few tobacco issues), and I think you have a nice recipe for stability and perhaps additional appreciation. One last factor is that, I bet, most people buying Wagners at these prices can afford to hold them, which means there is unlikely to be a dumping of Wagner cards that leads to a value spiral.

Now, the question of whether now is the time to sell…? That is personal question that I think depends principally on whether you have a better use for the after-tax proceeds.

Agreed. It seems to me there has been an incredible amount of rare high quality Ruth cards available in the last few auctions, any thoughts on the seller(s)? Doesn't seem to be a top but damn, some folks were selling a lot of great Ruth cards.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Back to the OP, which is whether the recent surge in Wagner prices is sustainable, as it could impact one’s decision whether to sell an M116 Blue Wagner….

Personally, I think Wagner cards, along with numerous other pre war players, have been very undervalued for a long time, and I think the recent surge is a reflection of that. Additionally, I think Wagner, for the reasons stated earlier, is in a unique group of transcendent players, who will remain desirable to future generations (Ruth, Cobb, Jackson, Gehrig, Mantle, Mays, Robinson, Aaron). Add the relative rarity of Wagner cards (100+ years old, played a bulk of his career in the early 1900s before the rise of most T, D, and E cards, and very few tobacco issues), and I think you have a nice recipe for stability and perhaps additional appreciation. One last factor is that, I bet, most people buying Wagners at these prices can afford to hold them, which means there is unlikely to be a dumping of Wagner cards that leads to a value spiral.

Now, the question of whether now is the time to sell…? That is personal question that I think depends principally on whether you have a better use for the after-tax proceeds.

Ryan, why is it that there aren't any pitchers in your list of transcendent players?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Ryan, why is it that there aren't any pitchers in your list of transcendent players?

Young and Mathewson?

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Ryan, why is it that there aren't any pitchers in your list of transcendent players?

Good question. I don’t think pitchers get the same respect/hold the same value as hitters. But if you were to list pitchers, I think we would have Young, Johnson, Mathewson, Koufax, and Nolan Ryan.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Good question. I don’t think pitchers get the same respect/hold the same value as hitters. But if you were to list pitchers, I think we would have Young, Johnson, Mathewson, Koufax, and Nolan Ryan.

Nice recovery, Ryan!

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Ryan, why is it that there aren't any pitchers in your list of transcendent players?

Because chicks dig the long ball.

[Brian]

That is an awesome Tip Top.

I love the Cracker Jacks, but my favorite Wagner cards (aside from THE card, which I will never own) are the M116 and E90-2. If I had kids, I'd pass them down and would never sell (unless circumstances called for that to happen).

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right, the question is the step up basis at time of transfer, and where there is no contemporaneous appraisal or documentation, one would need to do a good faith estimate based on whatever information is reasonably available.

That is correct, we've done it with houses in my business before. I'm assuming searching Wagner values of 10'years ago would yield pretty solid information.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right, the question is the step up basis at time of transfer, and where there is no contemporaneous appraisal or documentation, one would need to do a good faith estimate based on whatever information is reasonably available.

Or you hire a whore, er, an expert to appraise the item. Not needed if the card is a routine seller. There are enough sales of a 1954 Aaron in almost every grade so that you can pin down a value for most any period from any number of data scraping services. Lections Ruth, not so much.

Besides, who are we kidding? When one of us nutcase collector types die the wife or kids will fall all over themselves cashing out the collection as quickly as possible (I can definitely see my wife telling my daughter to "get those f***ing baseball cards out of my house"; she says it now, while I am still here), so post-death appreciation is not going to be an issue for them.

[Yoda]

With the IRS estate threshold (I forget what it is these days, $4M?) you would have to have a really valuable collection or be asset rich in other areas to be faced with a large inheritance tax. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick here?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Yoda

With the IRS estate threshold (I forget what it is these days, $4M?) you would have to have a really valuable collection or be asset rich in other areas to be faced with a large inheritance tax. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick here?

For 2023, the threshold is $12.92M.

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small...yed/estate-tax

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

For 2023, the threshold is $12.92M.

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small...yed/estate-tax

States are typically much lower though. In Taxachusetts, for example, it's 1 million.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Prof

Hypothetically, do you know what the process would be like here?

- A person dies, and an old photo album gets distributed to a relative. Basically, "Hey, we're cleaning out the house. You want this?"
- Nobody searches through it for 10 years.
- Finally, they look through it, and find a T206 Doyle error card glued to a page.
- They consign and sell the card for 1 million.

Is there like a retroactive appraisal assessment for when the person received the album 10 years ago? Then, you subtract that 10-year-old value from the 1 million, and that's what you pay the gains on?

Or are you just paying on the 1 million since it was never appraised at the time?

-

And what about if the item was truly unique to the hobby with no past market value?

If there was a retroactive appraisal, would they just pull an educated estimate out of their butts that was smaller than the present day value from selling it?


(Sorry if this is derailing the thread a bit.)



Back on topic, Wagners are cool. I wish I had one.

If this is your situation, it’s time to hire a CPA who does this stuff every day. Most of these exciting fact patterns boil down to facts and circumstances and trying to document stuff. And even then, there’s going to be a lot of gray area, so it will come down to a question of how much you want to play in the gray area.