NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-31-2023, 07:54 PM
cgjackson222's Avatar
cgjackson222 cgjackson222 is online now
Charles Jackson
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,914
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
1981 Dodgers?
I was thinking about them, but its hard to say how dominant they really were, due the '81 strike. Their record was 63-47 for 2nd best in the NL West.

And they eeked by in both their Divisional and NL Championship Series with 3-2 series wins.

Last edited by cgjackson222; 07-31-2023 at 08:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-31-2023, 08:44 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,726
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgjackson222 View Post
I was thinking about them, but its hard to say how dominant they really were, due the '81 strike. Their record was 63-47 for 2nd best in the NL West.

And they eked by in both their Divisional and NL Championship Series with 3-2 series wins.
Agreed, but they're only the second champion we've been able to come up with i think, besides the Angels.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-31-2023, 08:51 PM
cgjackson222's Avatar
cgjackson222 cgjackson222 is online now
Charles Jackson
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,914
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Agreed, but they're only the second champion we've been able to come up with i think, besides the Angels.
Did you see my posts about the Cubs (#33) and Royals (#3)? Sorry, I know I’ve posted a lot in this thread.

Last edited by cgjackson222; 07-31-2023 at 08:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-31-2023, 09:06 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,726
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgjackson222 View Post
Did you see my posts about the Cubs (#33) and Royals (#3)? Sorry, I know I’ve posted a lot in this thread.
OH, right you are, my mindset going in was teams from the past, not teams with current players but those are good.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-31-2023 at 09:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-31-2023, 09:22 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,726
Default

If you don't like Molina's chances the 2011 Cardinals maybe? Am I missing someone there, I don't think Wainwright makes it.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-01-2023, 12:32 AM
jayshum jayshum is offline
Jay Shumsky
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: NJ
Posts: 3,828
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
If you don't like Molina's chances the 2011 Cardinals maybe? Am I missing someone there, I don't think Wainwright makes it.
Pujols was on the 2011 Cardinals
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-01-2023, 09:17 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,726
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayshum View Post
Pujols was on the 2011 Cardinals
Ah, I was off in my mind by a year on his departure.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-01-2023, 10:14 AM
D. Bergin's Avatar
D. Bergin D. Bergin is offline
Dave
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 6,877
Default Jeff Kent

If Jeff Kent had put up the bulk of his traditional stats as a 2nd Baseman in almost any other period of baseball history other then the late 90's to mid 2000's (and playing in the shadow/infamy of Bonds), he likely would have sailed in to the Hall a long time ago.

A lot of the players around him dampened his analytical numbers (and let's be honest, that's what we go by nowadays), with all of the monster offensive seasons going on around the rest of the league during that time period, he was killed by the grading curve of the era.

If Kent put up the same stats as a 2nd baseman, that he put up in 1997 to 2007, from 1977 to 1987 instead, he'd probably have a career WAR number in the range of Joe Morgan.

Lastly, I don't recall Kent ever being implicated in PEDS, but I'm sure it's hard for a lot of voters to shake a couple thoughts:

#1. He was Bonds team-mate for so long (even if they hated each other), along with team-mates with lots of other suspected PEDs cheats on other teams...and

#2. All his best seasons were essentially post prime seasons for most other players in the league (age 30 to 39).

It might just be guilt by association, but it does create certain doubts.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-01-2023, 10:27 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 9,166
Default

How did the players around him dampen his analytical numbers?

Kent has some surface level totals that might impress you if you only looked at his raw numbers for home runs but baseball Reference has him ranked as the 21st best second baseman, with Ian Kinsler ranked just above him.

All of his advanced stats are below the average 2B Hall of Famer.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-01-2023, 11:08 AM
D. Bergin's Avatar
D. Bergin D. Bergin is offline
Dave
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 6,877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
How did the players around him dampen his analytical numbers?

Kent has some surface level totals that might impress you if you only looked at his raw numbers for home runs but baseball Reference has him ranked as the 21st best second baseman, with Ian Kinsler ranked just above him.

All of his advanced stats are below the average 2B Hall of Famer.

The more other players have monster seasons around you (whether they are on PEDS or not), the less valuable your semi-monster season is going to be, from a replacement value perspective.

Again, I'm not arguing for him to be in the HOF, but when you say "surface level"...do you mean HR's, RBI's, Runs, Extra Base Hits, OBP, etc., etc., etc....

Baseball Reference has him ranked based on WAR alone.

However, Jeff Kent ranks 43rd All-Time in extra base hits...(a pretty good catch-all for your quality of batted balls to me). The only regular 2nd basemen ahead of him are Rogers Hornsby and Craig Biggio.

He's 54th All-Time in RBI's. Hornsby and Lajoie are the only regular 2nd basemen ahead of him in this category.

His surface level lifetime BA, Slugging%, OBP, OPS, and even OPS+ are all pretty impressive for a 2nd baseman IMO.

He was a competent but not spectacular 2nd baseman defensively. This does not help his overall WAR. He was thought of highly enough for multiple teams to keep trotting him out there though. Even supplanting an aging Biggio in Houston near the end of his own career.

Last edited by D. Bergin; 08-01-2023 at 11:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-01-2023, 10:29 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,726
Default

But isn't the point of the analytics that Kent likely would NOT have put up those same numbers in a different era?
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-01-2023, 10:51 AM
D. Bergin's Avatar
D. Bergin D. Bergin is offline
Dave
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 6,877
Default

Maybe I'm not being clear enough. I'm not posing an argument for why Jeff Kent SHOULD be in the HOF, but rather, why he is not...regardless of my personal beliefs.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-01-2023, 11:09 AM
D. Bergin's Avatar
D. Bergin D. Bergin is offline
Dave
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 6,877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
But isn't the point of the analytics that Kent likely would NOT have put up those same numbers in a different era?

I wasn't arguing otherwise. Just hypothesizing what his raw stats might have translated to in a slightly different era.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Potential HOFers for active players mrreality68 Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk 28 05-28-2023 06:41 PM
"Museum Caliber" ???? frankbmd Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 5 07-03-2021 08:26 PM
Best Team Without HoF Players KCRfan1 Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk 36 03-30-2014 09:04 AM
FS: 10 Different MLB baseball players including HOFers vintagebrett Autographs & Game Used B/S/T 0 01-08-2013 06:42 AM
Anyone know what team or recognize players? Archive Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 2 12-06-2008 12:11 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:22 PM.


ebay GSB