The Card Altering Services Saga Continues

[Seven]

Originally Posted by mordecaibrown1

This stuff has been going on since the 80’s
Ruth’s Frankenstein together using parts from commons
Turning them into high grade cards

Can you go into a little more depth about this, I haven't heard about it before. Goudey's were getting cut up and pasted together?

[mordecaibrown1]

Back then I knew one of the restorers quite well. He told me the process. And not just Goudey's. Many cards from many sets 1800's up to the 1950's. Even full sets.

[Snowman]

Perhaps I'm missing something. Where is he altering cards? All I see is a guy taking cards with bent up corners and pushing them back down, sticking cards in a humidor and then letting them dry them flat, and gently cleaning smudges off the surfaces of cards.

If any of these actions I mentioned qualify as "altering" a card to you (resulting in it not being grade worthy), then you might as well just throw in the towel on collecting cards altogether. Because 99% of collectors who have raw cards with bent up corners are going to try to push those back down. And sticking a card in a humidor is no different from shipping one from Vegas to New Orleans in the summer.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Perhaps I'm missing something. Where is he altering cards? All I see is a guy taking cards with bent up corners and pushing them back down, sticking cards in a humidor and then letting them dry them flat, and gently cleaning smudges off the surfaces of cards.

If any of these actions I mentioned qualify as "altering" a card to you (resulting in it not being grade worthy), then you might as well just throw in the towel on collecting cards altogether. Because 99% of collectors who have raw cards with bent up corners are going to try to push those back down. And sticking a card in a humidor is no different from shipping one from Vegas to New Orleans in the summer.

This has also kicked around my head for a while. At the end of the day, we all draw our own line in a different place. I do think that purists are going to have to soften in their stance or get out all together, because I see a wave of “card preservation” normalization is coming.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by conor912

This has also kicked around my head for a while. At the end of the day, we all draw our own line in a different place. I do think that purists are going to have to soften in their stance or get out all together, because I see a wave of “card preservation” normalization is coming.

We are the only paper-based collectible hobby that does not conserve items. This is a 200 year old print:



This is a 100 year old print:



The 200 year old cotton-rag print has a better chance of making 300 than the 100 year old wood pulp print has to make 200. I am not against properly performed efforts to conserve the paper. More and more of our cardboard is going to rot away due to acid from the wood pulp paper. The chemical reaction can be halted and some of the damage reversed with proper conservation techniques. If we do nothing we allow the history of the hobby to rot away.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by exhibitman

we are the only paper-based collectible hobby that does not conserve items. The 200 year old cotton-rag print has a better chance of making 300 than the 100 year old wood pulp print has to make 200. I am not against properly performed efforts to conserve the paper. More and more of our cardboard is going to rot away due to acid from the wood pulp paper. The chemical reaction can be halted and some of the damage reversed with proper conservation techniques. If we do nothing we allow the history of the hobby to rot away.

bullseye !!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I love the black gloves.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

We are the only paper-based collectible hobby that does not conserve items. This is a 200 year old print:



This is a 100 year old print:



The 200 year old cotton-rag print has a better chance of making 300 than the 100 year old wood pulp print has to make 200. I am not against properly performed efforts to conserve the paper. More and more of our cardboard is going to rot away due to acid from the wood pulp paper. The chemical reaction can be halted and some of the damage reversed with proper conservation techniques. If we do nothing we allow the history of the hobby to rot away.

This is not what Evan Mathis and the rest of the parasites are doing though.

You want standards of conservation? Then have a governing body establish them and hold people to those standards. I'm 100% okay with a standardized fair playing field but these folks are just scunbags trying to take advantage. Complete transparency on the label, "was graded a 2 in 1998, has since been "restored" by knucklehead #1 in 2005, knucklehead #2 in 2023, and here's your product. What'll you give me for it?

I've said it before, the most valuable T and E cards should be the ones with fat borders that show 100+ years of wear on them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The only thing those fat bordered E cards are good for is making smaller higher grade ones. We started seeing E cards that fit into T holders here a decade and a half ago and of course most people oohed and aahed. It's an art form.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by conor912

This has also kicked around my head for a while. At the end of the day, we all draw our own line in a different place. I do think that purists are going to have to soften in their stance or get out all together, because I see a wave of “card preservation” normalization is coming.

The purists can maintain whatever drawn line they wish to stand behind, but the rest of the hobby doesn't owe it to them to entertain or appease their demands. If I push down a lifted corner with my finger, I'm not going to put a sticky note on my card to remind me of that fact for when I go to sell it in the future. Sorry, not sorry. Everyone flattens down a bent corner. If someone finds that problematic, then they can just go find another hobby, because everyone is doing it and no one is disclosing it because there's nothing to disclose. And every TPG would give that card a numeric grade.

Just look at the comments on that TikTok video linked to in the OP. The comments/likes are about 1000 to 1 in favor of what Kurtscardcare is doing in the video as being completely acceptable. If you take issue with what he is doing, then you are *vastly* outnumbered.

IMO, as long as you are not removing card stock or adding something to the card, then you are not altering it.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Perhaps I'm missing something.

Yes, you are.

Follow the link in the first post. The landing page has these words, among others:

"...Sprays, Polishes, Edge/Corner repair..."

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Perhaps I'm missing something. Where is he altering cards? All I see is a guy taking cards with bent up corners and pushing them back down, sticking cards in a humidor and then letting them dry them flat, and gently cleaning smudges off the surfaces of cards.

If any of these actions I mentioned qualify as "altering" a card to you (resulting in it not being grade worthy), then you might as well just throw in the towel on collecting cards altogether. Because 99% of collectors who have raw cards with bent up corners are going to try to push those back down. And sticking a card in a humidor is no different from shipping one from Vegas to New Orleans in the summer.

“Taking cards with bent up corners and pushing them back down” is a dictionary definition of altering, sorry.

The roller stick he sells is an altering tool.

[Tomi]

Has anyone ever seen a crease somewhat reappear or a corner coming back up after the card has been holdered? I've wondered if these alterations are permanent or temporary fixes.

[bmattioli]

Comic Books are cleaned and pressed all the time.. then submitted..

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by bmattioli

Comic Books are cleaned and pressed all the time.. then submitted..

Not meaning to be rude, is an old argument and used constantly. They are, but it’s half the story. Conserved comics are labeled as such if the grader can locate it, it is not an “allowed” practice for a straight grade.

https://www.cgccomics.com/grading/gr...le=restoration

Every grading company for cards has a grade for that too…authentic or altered authentic. No big difference.

The comic book argument holds no water.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Tomi

Has anyone ever seen a crease somewhat reappear or a corner coming back up after the card has been holdered? I've wondered if these alterations are permanent or temporary fixes.

In my experience I believe many of the pressed or especially a humidity repair by swelling paper fibers can be temporary. However, those who do them could care less as long as it’s there long enough to get through a grader. If the card lies in the wrong environment and that moisture is removed, logically it returns to the previous state.

[G1911]

I am not aware of any serious card conservation efforts. Who is out there doing work to preserve cards that will otherwise disintegrate because of their paper?


If the alteration made and the history of the card are disclosed when auctioned, it's probably not all that bad. If it needs to be covered up that the card used to be a PSA 4 before it was an 8 and what was done to it, it's probably bad. It's not really that difficult.


Other collectibles grade altered items separately, and denote that it was done. This is is not all what our alterers and scammers are doing here.


Probably belongs in the "what has changed since you started?" thread, but not that long ago everybody at least paid lip service to the idea that alteration needed to be disclosed and fraud was bad. Now, we have regular posters whose majority of posts are shilling for a fraud ring or explaining why it is okay. I can't see how this is a good shift for anyone but the practitioners of it.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Tomi

Has anyone ever seen a crease somewhat reappear or a corner coming back up after the card has been holdered? I've wondered if these alterations are permanent or temporary fixes.

I think some do re-appear. I have seen cards with grades that do not match the visible condition, with a paper wrinkle somewhere, aka just the sort of thing that would be 'removed' for grading.

Just to be clear, I am not advocating altering cards to deceive, but I am suggesting that some activities are going to be needed if lower-quality stock cards are not going to crumble into dust.

Greg, there are a number of quality conservators out there who will work on sports memorabilia and cards but their services are usually too expensive to make it worthwhile. I had a conservator clean, de-acidify, and linen-back this poster:



Which was just about split at the folds. Great save but I lost money when I sold it.

[Zeusenbauer]

What might be the standard on card altering/conservation in the year 2050? How about 2075? What societal demographic will be leading the way then?

One thing in its history that the sports card hobby/industry has rarely bent over backwards to exhibit is transparency. Just like bad trades are a part of baseball.. An ad in a 1986 SCD offered a 1975 Topps Reggie Jackson NM, $11. No photo. No accountability. So many gaps in knowing what that card might actually look like based on the listing, it borders on absurd. Send a check, spin the wheel.

Now in 2023, many advancements. See what the card looks like before you buy it. Doesn't tell the whole story, but it does help the buyer at least somewhat. However, our hobby swears by 3rd party grading, and the astronomical price structure of high end stuff is completely reinforced by it. Because someone whose qualifications we can't verify slaps a number on our card and offers zero justification for said number, based on a grading scale that is, ahem, unscientifically adhered to, rife with inconsistencies. But if our card hits the number, cha-ching! If we decide to sell. This point is to specifically address the current lack of transparency in our hobby.

In 1983, I got a Beckett Price Guide book and a bye bye to baseball card innocence. 1983 Topps Willie McGee, something like $1.50 (The card shop I took it to to cash in didn't want it.)

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Tomi

Has anyone ever seen a crease somewhat reappear or a corner coming back up after the card has been holdered? I've wondered if these alterations are permanent or temporary fixes.

I think this happens mostly as a result of cards being stored in humid climates and then relocated to extremely dry climates. I don't think it has anything to do with people "spooning" out creases and them having a "memory" or anything like that. I think this is also how most cards get surface wrinkles to begin with; moisture content from humid environments and then quickly being dried out.

This is also how cards get warped. But that's reversible. Just toss the warped card into a humidor for a while (or soak it in distilled water), then take it out and let it dry flat under a book. Presto! Flat card.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by Tomi

Has anyone ever seen a crease somewhat reappear or a corner coming back up after the card has been holdered? I've wondered if these alterations are permanent or temporary fixes.

Yes

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Tomi

Has anyone ever seen a crease somewhat reappear or a corner coming back up after the card has been holdered? I've wondered if these alterations are permanent or temporary fixes.

I'm not sure how people would possibly know this unless they are the ones who did the work on the card/s in question. I've read multiple reports of people claiming this happens, but every time it's from someone who couldn't possibly know that to be the case. It's always someone who either heard it from someone else, or who just sees a flaw on a card in a holder and reasons "that crease must not have been there when this card was holdered, otherwise, it never would have been given this grade." Anyone making that claim would either have to admit to being the person who made the crease disappear or be a first-hand witness to someone else "improving" the card on their behalf. Otherwise, they don't know what they're talking about because they didn't see what the card looked like before the crease was removed.

I don't believe you can take a card with a large obvious crease and make that crease disappear. As in truly disappear. I've heard it claimed countless times. I've also seen numerous cards where someone thinks they've removed a crease, yet I have no trouble finding it. I know they can make it look better, but truly disappear? A full-blown large crease that breaks the surface and is visible on both sides of the card? I've never seen anyone who can pull that off. Not even Dick Towle. I know people can make light surface wrinkles or light creases that only affect one side of the paper disappear by using either moisture or smashing the hell out of a card, but that's different. And if a card has been smashed, that's detectable and should be caught by the grading companies.

[Johnny630]

I've seen 51 Bowman's turn to the consistency of peanut brittle/hard as a rock...could smell the odor of some kind of chemical applied to the card....I don't know but from judging the dealers other 51's of lesser caliber common cards of which many of them had wax stains on the back. I'm assuming some kind of chemical maybe acetone or mineral spirits could have bee used on the back to get the wax off. I wonder if feel and texture goes into account on vintage card grading by the TPG's.