The Card Altering Services Saga Continues

[Tomi]

Has anyone ever seen a crease somewhat reappear or a corner coming back up after the card has been holdered? I've wondered if these alterations are permanent or temporary fixes.

[bmattioli]

Comic Books are cleaned and pressed all the time.. then submitted..

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by bmattioli

Comic Books are cleaned and pressed all the time.. then submitted..

Not meaning to be rude, is an old argument and used constantly. They are, but it’s half the story. Conserved comics are labeled as such if the grader can locate it, it is not an “allowed” practice for a straight grade.

https://www.cgccomics.com/grading/gr...le=restoration

Every grading company for cards has a grade for that too…authentic or altered authentic. No big difference.

The comic book argument holds no water.

[JustinD]

Same for cgcs numismatic services. A cleaned coin is worth a fraction of an uncleaned one.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Not meaning to be rude, is an old argument and used constantly. They are, but it’s half the story. Conserved comics are labeled as such if the grader can locate it, it is not an “allowed” practice for a straight grade.

https://www.cgccomics.com/grading/gr...le=restoration

Every grading company for cards has a grade for that too…authentic or altered authentic. No big difference.

The comic book argument holds no water.

I dislike the practice of cleaning and pressing comics. However, CGC allows you to submit books for cleaning, pressing, and grading. If the comic was deemed unaltered before CGC gets it, it won’t get an “altered” designation when cleaned, pressed, graded and encapsulated.

I don’t agree with or understand it….but that’s the world of comic grading.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Not meaning to be rude, is an old argument and used constantly. They are, but it’s half the story. Conserved comics are labeled as such if the grader can locate it, it is not an “allowed” practice for a straight grade.

https://www.cgccomics.com/grading/gr...le=restoration

Every grading company for cards has a grade for that too…authentic or altered authentic. No big difference.

The comic book argument holds no water.

Cleaning and pressing is NOT considered alteration/conservation in comics and CGC actually offers the service themselves.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Cleaning and pressing is NOT considered alteration/conservation in comics and CGC actually offers the service themselves.

True, pressing is allowed.

However, it really only is because CGC threw up their hands at the advent of it in the early 2000s. Due to the reason they admitted they could not detect it well enough to identify in the beginning and gave up. Then they saw a profit to be made on the back end about 15 years ago and started the side hustle.

I do not collect comics, but have many friends in the hobby that are old school and disagree with that decision. They will only collect ungraded copies or for the important issues "Old label" CGC that were pre-04 as they are believed to be less apt to pressing as it was not widely used outside the insider alterers prior.

Personally I think graded comics is sillier than cards as it renders the comic useless for it's intended purpose. I collected in the 80s and early 90s as a younger man and can't see not reading my comics. Different strokes for different folks.

Cleaning is a personal choice and many use it in both hobbies. I think it's shady even with the polishing that people use on shiny cards, the limit for me would be a dry wipe, not any compounds or solvents. However, that's not realistic and I will just go on knowing that others will do what they do. I'm not hating them for it, I just disagree and will not participate. What the grading services either miss or allow still does not change the definition...altering can be looked up in a dictionary. The line just changes based on money and the bottom line.

My favorite shady thing about CGC is that they figured out a way to make cash both coming and going. They will press and restore your book but also offer an restoration removal service, lol. If that's not something to think about...

[BeanTown]

Just got this in my package from a rare eBay purchase. Couldn’t fraudulent sellers purposely mis categorize their listing to avoid the authentication process.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Just got this in my package from a rare eBay purchase. Couldn’t fraudulent sellers purposely mis categorize their listing to avoid the authentication process.

It's become a fairly common practice already for the scammers, these things just take them a few months to figure out. Keywords in the listing titles cull it out easily - "set", "pack", "box", or "lot" are examples. You can see that issue as people commonly used "set break", "base set", or "pack fresh", they were kicked out of the program. They supposedly fixed that recently if the phrase "set break" is used, but not sure. "Set" will still kick it on it's own.

No lots, sets, or unopened packs/boxes are in the program, so many scammers will sell a fake Ruth with some trash like a free 1983 Topps common to slide it under the lot category and get the fake to the buyer.

I would feel bad about posting this info, but they all know this already. The site is full of them.

You must look for the blue check and eBay statement (not seller statement) that it is 'Authenticity Guaranteed" to trust it is in the program.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Tomi

Has anyone ever seen a crease somewhat reappear or a corner coming back up after the card has been holdered? I've wondered if these alterations are permanent or temporary fixes.

In my experience I believe many of the pressed or especially a humidity repair by swelling paper fibers can be temporary. However, those who do them could care less as long as it’s there long enough to get through a grader. If the card lies in the wrong environment and that moisture is removed, logically it returns to the previous state.

[G1911]

I am not aware of any serious card conservation efforts. Who is out there doing work to preserve cards that will otherwise disintegrate because of their paper?


If the alteration made and the history of the card are disclosed when auctioned, it's probably not all that bad. If it needs to be covered up that the card used to be a PSA 4 before it was an 8 and what was done to it, it's probably bad. It's not really that difficult.


Other collectibles grade altered items separately, and denote that it was done. This is is not all what our alterers and scammers are doing here.


Probably belongs in the "what has changed since you started?" thread, but not that long ago everybody at least paid lip service to the idea that alteration needed to be disclosed and fraud was bad. Now, we have regular posters whose majority of posts are shilling for a fraud ring or explaining why it is okay. I can't see how this is a good shift for anyone but the practitioners of it.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Tomi

Has anyone ever seen a crease somewhat reappear or a corner coming back up after the card has been holdered? I've wondered if these alterations are permanent or temporary fixes.

I think some do re-appear. I have seen cards with grades that do not match the visible condition, with a paper wrinkle somewhere, aka just the sort of thing that would be 'removed' for grading.

Just to be clear, I am not advocating altering cards to deceive, but I am suggesting that some activities are going to be needed if lower-quality stock cards are not going to crumble into dust.

Greg, there are a number of quality conservators out there who will work on sports memorabilia and cards but their services are usually too expensive to make it worthwhile. I had a conservator clean, de-acidify, and linen-back this poster:



Which was just about split at the folds. Great save but I lost money when I sold it.

[Zeusenbauer]

What might be the standard on card altering/conservation in the year 2050? How about 2075? What societal demographic will be leading the way then?

One thing in its history that the sports card hobby/industry has rarely bent over backwards to exhibit is transparency. Just like bad trades are a part of baseball.. An ad in a 1986 SCD offered a 1975 Topps Reggie Jackson NM, $11. No photo. No accountability. So many gaps in knowing what that card might actually look like based on the listing, it borders on absurd. Send a check, spin the wheel.

Now in 2023, many advancements. See what the card looks like before you buy it. Doesn't tell the whole story, but it does help the buyer at least somewhat. However, our hobby swears by 3rd party grading, and the astronomical price structure of high end stuff is completely reinforced by it. Because someone whose qualifications we can't verify slaps a number on our card and offers zero justification for said number, based on a grading scale that is, ahem, unscientifically adhered to, rife with inconsistencies. But if our card hits the number, cha-ching! If we decide to sell. This point is to specifically address the current lack of transparency in our hobby.

In 1983, I got a Beckett Price Guide book and a bye bye to baseball card innocence. 1983 Topps Willie McGee, something like $1.50 (The card shop I took it to to cash in didn't want it.)

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Zeusenbauer

What might be the standard on card altering/conservation in the year 2050? How about 2075? What societal demographic will be leading the way then?

One thing in its history that the sports card hobby/industry has rarely bent over backwards to exhibit is transparency. Just like bad trades are a part of baseball.. An ad in a 1986 SCD offered a 1975 Topps Reggie Jackson NM, $11. No photo. No accountability. So many gaps in knowing what that card might actually look like based on the listing, it borders on absurd. Send a check, spin the wheel.

Now in 2023, many advancements. See what the card looks like before you buy it. Doesn't tell the whole story, but it does help the buyer at least somewhat. However, our hobby swears by 3rd party grading, and the astronomical price structure of high end stuff is completely reinforced by it. Because someone whose qualifications we can't verify slaps a number on our card and offers zero justification for said number, based on a grading scale that is, ahem, unscientifically adhered to, rife with inconsistencies. But if our card hits the number, cha-ching! If we decide to sell. This point is to specifically address the current lack of transparency in our hobby.

In 1983, I got a Beckett Price Guide book and a bye bye to baseball card innocence. 1983 Topps Willie McGee, something like $1.50 (The card shop I took it to to cash in didn't want it.)

All true indeed, lol.

I never once ordered a card that was better than described or often even close by today’s standards. The good cards were sold privately, shops, or at shows…and there was a shop in every city and a show every weekend…which gave ample opportunities. The internet killed the LCS just as easily as video killed the radio star.

Price guides have always been a joke, in the 80s the dealers would sell at a percentage of catalog so you felt like you were getting a deal. They bought at a fraction of catalog. Those prices often were just silly.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Tomi

Has anyone ever seen a crease somewhat reappear or a corner coming back up after the card has been holdered? I've wondered if these alterations are permanent or temporary fixes.

I think this happens mostly as a result of cards being stored in humid climates and then relocated to extremely dry climates. I don't think it has anything to do with people "spooning" out creases and them having a "memory" or anything like that. I think this is also how most cards get surface wrinkles to begin with; moisture content from humid environments and then quickly being dried out.

This is also how cards get warped. But that's reversible. Just toss the warped card into a humidor for a while (or soak it in distilled water), then take it out and let it dry flat under a book. Presto! Flat card.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by Tomi

Has anyone ever seen a crease somewhat reappear or a corner coming back up after the card has been holdered? I've wondered if these alterations are permanent or temporary fixes.

Yes

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Tomi

Has anyone ever seen a crease somewhat reappear or a corner coming back up after the card has been holdered? I've wondered if these alterations are permanent or temporary fixes.

I'm not sure how people would possibly know this unless they are the ones who did the work on the card/s in question. I've read multiple reports of people claiming this happens, but every time it's from someone who couldn't possibly know that to be the case. It's always someone who either heard it from someone else, or who just sees a flaw on a card in a holder and reasons "that crease must not have been there when this card was holdered, otherwise, it never would have been given this grade." Anyone making that claim would either have to admit to being the person who made the crease disappear or be a first-hand witness to someone else "improving" the card on their behalf. Otherwise, they don't know what they're talking about because they didn't see what the card looked like before the crease was removed.

I don't believe you can take a card with a large obvious crease and make that crease disappear. As in truly disappear. I've heard it claimed countless times. I've also seen numerous cards where someone thinks they've removed a crease, yet I have no trouble finding it. I know they can make it look better, but truly disappear? A full-blown large crease that breaks the surface and is visible on both sides of the card? I've never seen anyone who can pull that off. Not even Dick Towle. I know people can make light surface wrinkles or light creases that only affect one side of the paper disappear by using either moisture or smashing the hell out of a card, but that's different. And if a card has been smashed, that's detectable and should be caught by the grading companies.

[Johnny630]

I've seen 51 Bowman's turn to the consistency of peanut brittle/hard as a rock...could smell the odor of some kind of chemical applied to the card....I don't know but from judging the dealers other 51's of lesser caliber common cards of which many of them had wax stains on the back. I'm assuming some kind of chemical maybe acetone or mineral spirits could have bee used on the back to get the wax off. I wonder if feel and texture goes into account on vintage card grading by the TPG's.

[troutbum97]

1952 Bowman Mantle "PSA 7.5" .... or "A" ??

Bottom border looks perfect, square & original.

Convince me the top border was not trimmed.

https://goldin.co/item/1952-bowman-1...sa-nm-7-5o94vf

[Seven]

Originally Posted by troutbum97

1952 Bowman Mantle "PSA 7.5" .... or "A" ??

Bottom border looks perfect, square & original.

Convince me the top border was not trimmed.

https://goldin.co/item/1952-bowman-1...sa-nm-7-5o94vf

That's a funky top border, If I ever saw one, but my 52 Bowman in an SGC 1.5 also has a weird top border. I'll put it below.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by troutbum97

1952 Bowman Mantle "PSA 7.5" .... or "A" ??

Bottom border looks perfect, square & original.

Convince me the top border was not trimmed.

https://goldin.co/item/1952-bowman-1...sa-nm-7-5o94vf

Could be trimmed, but could also not be. There's no shortage of factory miscuts from this set.

But that surface... yikes! That's some pretty bad print lines for a 7.5

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by troutbum97

1952 Bowman Mantle "PSA 7.5" .... or "A" ??

Bottom border looks perfect, square & original.

Convince me the top border was not trimmed.

https://goldin.co/item/1952-bowman-1...sa-nm-7-5o94vf

That looks dog-eared as can be, I think it's obvious choice.

As for Seven's 1.5, that looks like natural wear and not a concern. Yes, there are plenty of miscuts in those sets and some seem suspect and some not. If I saw a smoother transition to the corner and less questionable angles, maybe I could write it off. As it sits, nada.

I would never spend that kind of money for something I would think is an A grade, when I just could get a better actual A grade for far, far less.

There's a selection of authentic altered cards in that auction, my question would be is this from the same consigner? Good shot that in submissions, some get through as we all well know and some don't.

And before the lawyers come calling...this is only an opinion, I have not held these cards.

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by troutbum97

1952 Bowman Mantle "PSA 7.5" .... or "A" ??

Bottom border looks perfect, square & original.

Convince me the top border was not trimmed.

https://goldin.co/item/1952-bowman-1...sa-nm-7-5o94vf

top right corner does appear to have that telltale "tit" as is typical with trim jobs......

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

top right corner does appear to have that telltale "tit" as is typical with trim jobs......

I believe the Telltale Tit was written by Edgar Allan Poe.

Brian

[glynparson]

A bowman not being perfectly square is far from evidence of trimming. There are tons of legit funky cuts in bowmans and anyone who actually pays attention to their cards should know this. That being said I have no firm opinion on the mantle. Personally I’d probably pass based on the scans but I would in no way be positive it’s trimmed simply from the one pic/scan.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

I believe the Telltale Tit was written by Edgar Allan Poe.

Brian

As was Ears of the Bat.