Card doctoring video

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Well, if you trim a card and then sell it without disclosure it is fraud and may rise to the level of criminal fraud. If you mailed it or used electronic communications it may also be mail fraud or wire fraud, both crimes. Besides, is the metric so low in this hobby that criminality is now the line we draw when assessing the actions of others?

Bullshit…. Absolute bullshit. If the card was trimmed within accepted specifications the trimmer did zip wrong. He isn’t obligated to disclose anything to anyone.

Just because most card collectors are purists doesn’t mean trimmers should be purists. Fact is high end collectors aren’t purists because they damn well know it’s going on and continue to foolishly pay absurd prices for the trimmed cards.

That said…. I am a purist and dislike trimmed cards…..but when I buy a card if it measures correctly I’m good as long as something isn’t obvious.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

...If the card was trimmed within accepted specifications the trimmer did zip wrong. He isn’t obligated to disclose anything to anyone...

This is one of the most breathtakingly ignorant statements I've read on Net54 in the 10+ years I've been here.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Eric72

This is one of the most breathtakingly ignorant statements I've read on Net54 in the 10+ years I've been here.

Breathtaking….:eek…..….

Show me 1 criminal case where someone has been convicted of card trimming…..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Breathtaking….:eek…..….

Show me 1 criminal case where someone has been convicted of card trimming…..

Read this very thread re Bill Mastro.

[Rhotchkiss]

Here is a general definition of criminal fraud (each state probably has its own variation).

Altering a card is not a crime. Submitting an altered card to a TPG is not a crime. But the submission is an attempt to have the TPG (unknowingly) conceal the alteration. Then, the alterer sells the card in the TPG flip, misrepresenting (via implication or directly in the sales pitch/language) that the card is authentic/unaltered bc it sits in the flip, and they do this with the intent of making financial gain. That is fraud and fraud is a crime. Facts

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Here is a general definition of criminal fraud (each state probably has its own variation).

Altering a card is not a crime. Submitting an altered card to a TPG is not a crime. But the submission is an attempt to have the TPG (unknowingly) conceal the alteration. Then, the alterer sells the card in the TPG flip, misrepresenting (via implication or directly in the sales pitch/language) that the card is authentic/unaltered bc it sits in the flip, and they do this with the intent of making financial gain. That is fraud and fraud is a crime. Facts

Not that any of us needed that….but ok…..

Let’s come at this from another angle.

Guy pulls a 52’ Mantle out of a pack in 1952…. Hates Mantle so it sits in a box until he dies in 1992. It passes to his son that loved Mantle. He sees it’s oversized and uses his own expertise gained in another field to trim it to the equivalent of a PSA 10 and it’s still slightly oversized. The son dies in 2022 and his son gets the card and sends it to PSA completely unaware of what his father did to his grandfathers Mantle. It comes back a PSA 10.

Since no one knows…. Is it still a PSA 10?

If a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound?

[Rhotchkiss]

It’s a psa 10 bc it sits in a psa 10 flip. But it’s still altered

Your fact pattern is not fraud for 3 reasons: (1) the grandson has not tried to realize financial gain (he has not tried to sell it, (2) submitting it to psa alone is not fraud, and (3) he did not know it had been altered

If the grandson new it was altered, submitted it to psa and got a numerical grade and then sold it for financial gain, knowing it was altered, and not disclosing it, then it’s fraud.

You are arguing with several people who have gone to law school and either actively practice law or have practiced law. This is like you telling a radiologist how to read an X-ray. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but the fact pattern I have laid out meets all of the elements of fraud and fraud is a crime.

And with that, I wish you the best.

Ben, it is not fraud if the seller discloses it - there is no misrepresentation or omission/concealment (attempt to deceive).

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Not that any of us needed that….but ok…..

Let’s come at this from another angle.

Guy pulls a 52’ Mantle out of a pack in 1952…. Hates Mantle so it sits in a box until he dies in 1992. It passes to his son that loved Mantle. He sees it’s oversized and uses his own expertise gained in another field to trim it to the equivalent of a PSA 10 and it’s still slightly oversized. The son dies in 2022 and his son gets the card and sends it to PSA completely unaware of what his father did to his grandfathers Mantle. It comes back a PSA 10.

Since no one knows…. Is it still a PSA 10?

If a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound?

Unlike some very good board members I am NOT a lawyer, but I believe from my reading fraud is a crime of knowledge and intent. Unless I'm mistaken you can't accidentally or unknowingly commit fraud.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Here is a general definition of criminal fraud (each state probably has its own variation).

Altering a card is not a crime. Submitting an altered card to a TPG is not a crime. But the submission is an attempt to have the TPG (unknowingly) conceal the alteration. Then, the alterer sells the card in the TPG flip, misrepresenting (via implication or directly in the sales pitch/language) that the card is authentic/unaltered bc it sits in the flip, and they do this with the intent of making financial gain. That is fraud and fraud is a crime. Facts

What if the seller openly admits the graded card is altered? Would it then be a crime since it was disclosed?

I collect weird stuff and have bought and sold more than one counterfeit card in a PSA slab. When selling(one to a fellow member) I disclosed I believed the card to be counterfeit. I have also done this with a altered card in a SGC slab with a number grade. I disclosed the alteration and that sale was also to a fellow member.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

What if the seller openly admits the graded card is altered? Would it then be a crime since it was disclosed?

I collect weird stuff and have bought and sold more than one counterfeit card in a PSA slab. When selling(one to a fellow member) I disclosed I believed the card to be counterfeit. I have also done this with a altered card in a SGC slab with a number grade. I disclosed the alteration and that sale was also to a fellow member.

No crime in that case, there is no concealment. It's the concealment of a material fact (the alteration) that makes it a potential crime.

How often does that happen though LOL. Rob L occasionally would opine he thought a card had been trimmed. In one of Al C's auctions where he only found out at the last minute a card he was listing had been outed as altered, he disclosed it. Maybe there are more examples, but the overwhelming majority of the time, nobody is disclosing. Gee, I wonder why.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bnorth

What if the seller openly admits the graded card is altered? Would it then be a crime since it was disclosed?

I collect weird stuff and have bought and sold more than one counterfeit card in a PSA slab. When selling(one to a fellow member) I disclosed I believed the card to be counterfeit. I have also done this with a altered card in a SGC slab with a number grade. I disclosed the alteration and that sale was also to a fellow member.

When you sold that card that you believe to be altered in the numeric slab, did you sell it for the price of an Authentic Altered slab, or did you sell it for what the market says it's worth?

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Read this very thread re Bill Mastro.

Ok…Please show me where Mr Mastro was convicted of card trimming. Was there a plea bargain? Trial? It was explicitly for trimming a card that he trimmed and sold for profit?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Ok…Please show me where Mr Mastro was convicted of card trimming. Was there a plea bargain? Trial? It was explicitly for trimming a card that he trimmed and sold for profit?

If you read the thread you would see there was a plea bargain. I'm not doing your reading for you. Pathetic. First one guy in the face of all the evidence says he still doesn't believe it, now another guy refuses to even read. This is absurd, I am not wasting any more effort here.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you read the thread you would see there was a plea bargain. I'm not doing your reading for you. Pathetic. First one guy in the face of all the evidence says he still doesn't believe it, now another guy refuses to even read. This is absurd, I am not wasting any more effort here.

Link?

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you read the thread you would see there was a plea bargain. I'm not doing your reading for you. Pathetic. First one guy in the face of all the evidence says he still doesn't believe it, now another guy refuses to even read. This is absurd, I am not wasting any more effort here.

Peter, you may find this hard to believe, but there are actually people in this world that disagree with your opinion.

The headline of the case was the admission of trimming but the mail fraud is entirely tied to the shill bidding. And for those that disagree, fine. But my question for you is this… if there was no shill bidding and just the trimming, does this case result in a plea deal?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is absurd, I am not wasting any more effort here.

If I had a nickel for every time you've said that I could buy my own Wagner