Who is the greatest right handed hitter of all time?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Scocs

It is true that Aaron had better overall numbers towards the end of his career vs. Mays, but Mays also lost nearly two years to military service. It’s frightening to think of Mays’ hypothetical career totals….

Aaron played his career in hitters parks. From 1966-1974, the easiest hitters park in MLB. Mays played most of his career (1958 on) in pitchers parks.

[sniffy5]

It’s Joe Dimaggio. Throw whatever stats you want at the situation. He was the best. If any of us started a team, he’d be the first picked.

[RL]

al kaline...probably not in the to 5 though

[packs]

I really do think there is a case for DiMaggio over Mays and Aaron. Sure, short career and not even 500 homers, but there are very few players better than him. His overall slugging, OPS and OPS+ figures are very close to Mays and Aaron. I do realize Mays and Aaron's longevity are pretty much unsurpassed except for each other. But what a player DiMaggio was behind the raw numbers.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by packs

I really do think there is a case for DiMaggio over Mays and Aaron. Sure, short career and not even 500 homers, but there are very few players better than him. His overall slugging, OPS and OPS+ figures are very close to Mays and Aaron. I do realize Mays and Aaron's longevity are pretty much unsurpassed except for each other. But what a player DiMaggio was behind the raw numbers.

I think OPS+ does a pretty good job of measuring relative performance, at least over the last 100 years. The top right handers in the modern era, by OPS+, are:

1.Trout
2.Hornsby
3.Suttles
T4.Foxx
T4.Judge

The next five, ignoring juicers, are:

6.Greenberg
T7.Allen
T7.Thomas
T9.Aaron
T9.Dimaggio
T9.Mays

Trout and Judge will probably drop some as they get towards the end of their careers, but still they are in select company surrounding Hornsby and Foxx. Dick Allen had an amazing career in the era of cavernous parks and high mounds. Frank Thomas's achievements get overlooked because he played in the Selig/Reinsdorf PED-approved years.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

I think OPS+ does a pretty good job of measuring relative performance, at least over the last 100 years. The top right handers in the modern era, by OPS+, are:

1.Trout
2.Hornsby
3.Suttles
T4.Foxx
T4.Judge

The next five, ignoring juicers, are:

6.Greenberg
T7.Allen
T7.Thomas
T9.Aaron
T9.Dimaggio
T9.Mays

Trout and Judge will probably drop some as they get towards the end of their careers, but still they are in select company surrounding Hornsby and Foxx. Dick Allen had an amazing career in the era of cavernous parks and high mounds. Frank Thomas's achievements get overlooked because he played in the Selig/Reinsdorf PED-approved years.

OPS+ does a poor job of adjusting for home parks. Yankee Stadium was a completely different park for righties and lefties. Left handed hitters could hit cheap HRs into the short porch in right while who knows how many HRs DiMaggio lost hitting into the cavernous left center field of Yankee Stadium. Joe only hit 148 HRs at home vs 213 on the road.

Compare that to Jimmie Foxx, playing in hitters parks, who hit 299 at home and 235 on the road. On the road, DiMaggio hit a HR one in every 16.25 AB, Foxx one in every 18.08. They both hit .325, but Foxx's 30 point advantage in SLG is more than offset by their difference home parks. Joe was the better power hitter, even missing 3 prime years serving in WWII. I have DiMaggio as a slightly better hitter overall than Foxx.

[molenick]

I don't know if it does a good job or a poor job...but supposedly OPS+ does adjust for ballparks.

[packs]

Joe also won three MVP awards. His second MVP two seasons before he left and his third MVP two seasons after he came back. You can't assume an MVP award, but if he had played those three extra seasons and won another, he'd be the only player other than Bonds with 4 or more MVPs.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by rats60

OPS+ does a poor job of adjusting for home parks. Yankee Stadium was a completely different park for righties and lefties. Left handed hitters could hit cheap HRs into the short porch in right while who knows how many HRs DiMaggio lost hitting into the cavernous left center field of Yankee Stadium. Joe only hit 148 HRs at home vs 213 on the road.



Compare that to Jimmie Foxx, playing in hitters parks, who hit 299 at home and 235 on the road. On the road, DiMaggio hit a HR one in every 16.25 AB, Foxx one in every 18.08. They both hit .325, but Foxx's 30 point advantage in SLG is more than offset by their difference home parks. Joe was the better power hitter, even missing 3 prime years serving in WWII. I have DiMaggio as a slightly better hitter overall than Foxx.

OPS+ does fine adjusting for parks. It just has a problem adjusting for right-hand hitters in Yankee Stadium. Your points there are valid.

Still, Dick Allen had it worse. He played his home games at Connie Mack, Comiskey, Veterans, Chavez Ravine, and Busch Memorial. All big parks, most with high walls and lots of room in foul territory.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

OPS+ does fine adjusting for parks. It just has a problem adjusting for right-hand hitters in Yankee Stadium. Your points there are valid.

Still, Dick Allen had it worse. He played his home games at Connie Mack, Comiskey, Veterans, Chavez Ravine, and Busch Memorial. All big parks, most with high walls and lots of room in foul territory.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

It does a good job if you are willing to accept a 10+% error rate and that two players within 20-25 points may be equal hitters.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by packs

I really do think there is a case for DiMaggio over Mays and Aaron. Sure, short career and not even 500 homers, but there are very few players better than him. His overall slugging, OPS and OPS+ figures are very close to Mays and Aaron. I do realize Mays and Aaron's longevity are pretty much unsurpassed except for each other. But what a player DiMaggio was behind the raw numbers.

Interesting that all three have the same OPS+. According to OPS+ the winner is Mike Trout, but keep in mind he is still in his prime and his OPS+ could go down. Also the 1960s were a low scoring era. The 30's were higher. I believe one year the NL averaged over 300. For that reason I would go with Aaron. He did it much longer, almost twice as many plate appearances as DiMaggio.

Rank Player (yrs, age) Adjusted OPS+ PA Bats
7 Mike Trout (12, 30) 176 6159 R
8 Rogers Hornsby+ (23) 175 9481 R
Mule Suttles+ (21) 172 3649 R
14 Pete Browning (13) 163 5315 R
Jimmie Foxx+ (20) 163 9677 R
Aaron Judge (7, 30) 163 3161 R
Mark McGwire (16) 163 7660 R
18 Dave Orr (8) 162 3411 R
19 Hank Greenberg+ (13) 159 6098 R
23 Dick Allen (15) 156 7315 R
Frank Thomas+ (19) 156 10075 R
25 Henry Aaron+ (23) 155 13941 R
Joe DiMaggio+ (13) 155 7672 R
Willie Mays+ (23) 155 12545 R

[packs]

DiMaggio missed 3 ultra prime seasons. He was never going to get to 755 home runs but I think it was likely he was going to put up monster numbers for those seasons and probably would have finished with better OPS figures than we're looking at now. He missed his age 28 to 30 seasons, which are typically peak seasons for a player.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by packs

DiMaggio missed 3 ultra prime seasons. He was never going to get to 755 home runs but I think it was likely he was going to put up monster numbers for those seasons and probably would have finished with better OPS figures than we're looking at now. He missed his age 28 to 30 seasons, which are typically peak seasons for a player.

Based on what? He hit 21 homers the year before his military service and then 25 & 20 after.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Based on what? He hit 21 homers the year before his military service and then 25 & 20 after.

He had a 147 OPS+ and then didn't play baseball for three years and had a 142 OPS+ upon his return. I’m also basing it on the fact that he won 2 MVPs before he left and another two seasons after he returned.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by rats60

Aaron played his career in hitters parks. From 1966-1974, the easiest hitters park in MLB. Mays played most of his career (1958 on) in pitchers parks.

This is very true. To do what Mays did in Candlestick was absolutely insane.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

This is very true. To do what Mays did in Candlestick was absolutely insane.

Nailed it.

Living out here has taught me that the famous (and misappropriated) Mark Twain quote, "The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco," is a huge understatement. Even playing softball in these parts on a windswept 'summer' (Ha!!) day is a nightmare.

New quote proposal:
"In New York, they have the wind chill factor in winter. In San Francisco, they have it in summer!" (Take that, fake Mark Twain!!)

[sniffy5]

I think Dimaggio was a bit of a jerk from what books I’ve read. And I’d bet his anti-social whatever disorder helped him to basically have ice in his veins. 56 everyone… and then another 20…

[sniffy5]

And throw in 9 rings in what, 13 years in cavernous old school yankee stadium. 9 rings! We shower Jordan with his five rings, and rightfully so. Bro’s, I hear you all. Never struck out. Don’t ever forget how meaningful it is to put the ball in play. There’s a good argument that Joe D was the best player ever. Again, he was not a good person. Dude was a winner on par with basically no one…

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by sniffy5

And throw in 9 rings in what, 13 years in cavernous old school yankee stadium. 9 rings! We shower Jordan with his five rings, and rightfully so. Bro’s, I hear you all. Never struck out. Don’t ever forget how meaningful it is to put the ball in play. There’s a good argument that Joe D was the best player ever. Again, he was not a good person. Dude was a winner on par with basically no one…

Rings is about the worst measure of an individual baseball player ever.

[sniffy5]

My bad. It was a coincidence…

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by sniffy5

My bad. It was a coincidence…

How many rings does DiMaggio get if he's the leader of the St. Louis Browns.

How many rings does Ted Williams get if he was a Yankee?

So maybe coincidence is a little strong, but not much.

[charlietheexterminator]

I can only vouch for the players that I saw. Just think of the great pitchers Mays & Aaron faced.

1- Willie Mays
2 - Hank Aaron
3 - Pujols