Some of the mysteries and myths surrounding the most famous card in the hobby.

[tedzan]

Hey Folks, I will reiterate......

" My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were printed on was originally discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County).
Several other T206 Wagner cards have also been discovered in this part of L.I., NY ."
However, eventually, this particular sheet ended-up (or I should say "ended-down") in Florida.




Joseph Palmer Knapp was the founder of the American Lithographic Company (circa late 19th Century). He had a Summer home in Mastic Beach, L. I.,
New York. The point I'm making here is that Mr Knapp sometime during the summer of 1909 most likely brought T206 sheets containing Wagner cards
and Plank's, and other 150-only Series cards home for his children.

What evidence do I have that there is a high likelihood that this occurred......check-out the following complete uncut sheets which I acquired (circa 40
years ago) from former employees at Zabel Brothers Printers in Philadelphia, that produced the BOWMAN cards. During my High School years, I had a
part-time job working at a Print Shop. The printers regularly took home many of their printed material.



1948 BOWMAN complete uncut sheets






1949 BOWMAN complete uncut sheets





1950 BOWMAN complete uncut sheet




1952 BOWMAN complete uncut sheet (Large card version)




Pat
Regarding this statement of yours.....
" When you look at the back information on the Plank it indicates a late addition to the set "

I don't quite get it. Please explain.




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey Folks, I will reiterate......

" My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were printed on was originally discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County).
Several other T206 Wagner cards have also been discovered in this part of L.I., NY ."
However, eventually, this particular sheet ended-up (or I should say down) in Florida.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

And this is what I'm talking about with the mysteries and myths surrounding the card. Are you saying it was discovered in Long Island then somehow ended up in Florida where it was then brought back to Long Island and cut up?

You keep ,posting that your research indicates that it was originally discovered on Long Island but you're not showing or saying where that information came from.

Here's the claim that I've seen about it's origin

img188.jpg

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Pat R

And this is what I'm talking about with the mysteries and myths surrounding the card. Are you saying it was discovered in Long Island then somehow ended up in Florida where it was then brought back to Long Island and cut up?

You keep ,posting that your research indicates that it was originally discovered on Long Island but you're not showing or saying where that information came from.

Here's the claim that I've seen about it's origin

Attachment 543092

Maybe it had a homing instinct.

But just to clarify, remind me, who allegedly cut the card from the sheet? And who owned the single when Mastro bought it?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe it had a homing instinct.

But just to clarify, remind me, who allegedly cut the card from the sheet? And who owned the single when Mastro bought it?

Allegedly Ray and Sevchuk cut up the sheet before Mastro purchased the Wagner and the other cards that was on it from them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Allegedly Ray and Sevchuk cut up the sheet before Mastro purchased the Wagner and the other cards that was on it from them.

OK that makes sense; it was Ray I believe who supplied the controversial "before" picture that was published in the Daily News.

[tedzan]

If you are quoting excerpts from "The Card", be careful, because there are inaccuracies in it. For example, starting with this excerpt on Page #33.....

"The cards were printed at seven factories in New York, Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina. The factory where each card was made was stamped on the back."



These T206's were printed (produced) in New York City by the AMERICAN LITHOGRAPHIC COMPANY (ALC) beginning in 1909....and continued thru to 1919 (T213-3).

ALC would package up these cards and ship them via rail to the various Tobacco Factories to be inserted in their Cigarette packs.

The Tobacco Factories' machinery (and employees) were set up ONLY for producing Tobacco products. They did not have the capability to do the printing.

There are some other such inaccuracies. But, I do not have the time to go into them, now.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by tedzan

If you are quoting excerpts from "The Card", be careful, because there are inaccuracies in it. For example, starting with this excerpt on Page #33.....

"The cards were printed at seven factories in New York, Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina. The factory where each card was made was stamped on the back."



These T206's were printed (produced) in New York City by the AMERICAN LITHOGRAPHIC COMPANY (ALC) beginning in 1909....and continued thru to 1919 (T213-3).

ALC would package up these cards and ship them via rail to the various Tobacco Factories to be inserted in their Cigarette packs.

The Tobacco Factories' machinery (and employees) were set up ONLY for producing Tobacco products. They did not have the capability to do printing.

There are some other such inaccuracies. But, I do not have the time to go into them, now.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Can you give a source or evidence for the claim in question?

[tedzan]

Can you be specific as to what claim you are referring to?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Can you be specific as to what claim you are referring to?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

The one that you understood to reiterate in post 51, is the subject of the recent posts, that Pat asked for your source on, and that you criticized Pat's source for his view a few minutes ago. The subject is whether or not the information Pat posted is right or wrong, if the card did not come from Florida at all, and was discovered in Long Island and stayed there. You said your "research indicates" but have not shared the evidentiary basis for the conclusion, or challenged the source for Pat's claim, just other things in that book (which had a ton of junk in it, in my opinion) unrelated to this subject.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

1.....
" My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were printed on was originally discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County).
Several other T206 Wagner cards have also been discovered in this part of L.I., NY ."
However, eventually, this particular sheet ended-up (or I should say "ended-down") in Florida.

2.....
Pat
Regarding this statement of yours.....
" When you look at the back information on the Plank it indicates a late addition to the set "


I don't quite get it. Please explain.

Greg

1..... You have to realize that back in 1985, I was one of the dealers at the Willow Grove Show to whom this card was offered to. Upon my close examination, I passed on it.
I was told that it was originally discovered on an uncut sheet in Long Island, NY. I cannot recall who told me of this that weekend in 1985. My research indicating Mr. Knapp
of ALC having a residence in that part of Long Island provided a certain amount of credibility to story.
Years later, the "source" of this Wagner card was said to be Florida. And that claim sounded plausible, since many New Yorkers are "snow birds" during the Winter.

2...... I simply asked Pat if he would elaborate on the difference between the Plank card's back with respect to the Wagner card's back).

Do you have a "problem" with this question ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have a vague memory of Ray refusing to say where he got the card, which would be inconsistent with his father having purchased the sheet in Florida. Maybe that's wrong.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Greg

1..... You have to realize that back in 1985, I was one of the dealers at the Willow Grove Show to whom this card was offered to. Upon my close examination, I passed on it.
I was told that it was originally discovered on an uncut sheet in Long Island, NY. I cannot recall who told me of this that weekend in 1985. My research indicating Mr. Knapp
of ALC having a residence in that part of Long Island provided a certain amount of credibility to story.
Years later, the "source" of this Wagner card was said to be Florida. And that claim sounded plausible, since many New Yorkers are "snow birds" during the Winter.

2...... I simply asked Pat if he would elaborate on the difference between the Plank card's back with respect to the Wagner card's back).

Do you have a "problem" with this question ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

1. You said in 46 and reiterated in 51, "My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were on was first discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County)." Pat cited a source, reported in The Card, that contains the familiar Florida source, of it being found at a flea market there. So I asked what is the evidence for this counter claim. I have no idea what the actual truth is, but it seems logical that, when we have conflicting evidence, we would look at all of that evidence to see where it leads. We have one side of it sourced. It sounds like the evidence against this is that you heard an anonymous person of unknown connection to the origin say otherwise at a show?

2. Obviously I have no problem with asking Pat on the differences of it's reverse(s) with Wagner.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Greg

1..... You have to realize that back in 1985, I was one of the dealers at the Willow Grove Show to whom this card was offered to. Upon my close examination, I passed on it.
I was told that it was originally discovered on an uncut sheet in Long Island, NY. I cannot recall who told me of this that weekend in 1985. My research indicating Mr. Knapp
of ALC having a residence in that part of Long Island provided a certain amount of credibility to story.
Years later, the "source" of this Wagner card was said to be Florida. And that claim sounded plausible, since many New Yorkers are "snow birds" during the Winter.

2...... I simply asked Pat if he would elaborate on the difference between the Plank card's back with respect to the Wagner card's back).

Do you have a "problem" with this question ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

First group is 150 series and the second factors in the 350 series


img189.jpg

[Bigdaddy]

So if the sheet was 'discovered' at a flea market in FL, many (70?) years after it was printed, what is the history of the sheet before the flea market? If it was indeed printed in NYC, like Ted says, could it not have lived on Long Island for many, many years before making it's way to Florida?

It seems entirely possible that both stories are correct, just shifted in time from each other.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

So if the sheet was 'discovered' at a flea market in FL, many (70?) years after it was printed, what is the history of the sheet before the flea market? If it was indeed printed in NYC, like Ted says, could it not have lived on Long Island for many, many years before making it's way to Florida?

It seems entirely possible that both stories are correct, just shifted in time from each other.

I think Ted is referring not to where it was printed but where it was "discovered" in the sense of becoming known to the hobby.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

So if the sheet was 'discovered' at a flea market in FL, many (70?) years after it was printed, what is the history of the sheet before the flea market? If it was indeed printed in NYC, like Ted says, could it not have lived on Long Island for many, many years before making it's way to Florida?

It seems entirely possible that both stories are correct, just shifted in time from each other.

The discussion wasn't about the sheet originating in NY it most likely did, the discussion was did the card originate from a sheet discovered in Florida.

[G1911]

Where it was printed was separate, and it probably was the NY area, but I think we do not know where exactly and this should not be stated as a fact. The T card printing was done in multiple locations, by multiple companies (which may or may not have been shadow subsidiaries and 1 real company; American Lithography), that much we do know for certain. The only cards where we know where they were printed are the ones in the Fullgraff ledger/notebook, the full contents of which are not public. Those cards in those sets weren’t all necessarily printed at that facility. The ATC ledger doesn’t give any printing locations, and I’ve never seen actual evidence that a particular set outside of the Fullgraff ledger/book was produced at a particular facility. I suspect long running sets with massive runs may have spanned multiple facilities. Such evidence may exist and I simply am not privy to it.

The discovery of the sheet is the issue in question. We have, one one hand, the reported interviews by O’Keeffe in his book. On the other, we appear to have a report that an unknown person, with unknown connection to the sheet, said something different at a show in 1985 to a member. I’d love to know if there is any other evidence; this sheet’s destruction ruined a fair bit of history that might have been able to tell us a lot about many T cards, beyond T206 only.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The story in The Card is from multiple hearsay sources, sometimes multiple levels, no? Not terribly reliable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is what I was thinking of. This story says Ray refused to say where he got the Wagner. Nothing about a father in Florida.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_19.html

[Peter_Spaeth]

From Smithsonian Magazine, for what it's worth.

In 1986, a new specimen of the card—in better condition than any other—emerged out of nowhere, it seemed. An owner of a Long Island sports memorabilia store announced that a man named Alan Ray was selling his 1909 T206 Wagner for $25,000. Ray would not say where he acquired the card, to this day keeping mum about what the card was up to between 1909 and 1986.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The story in The Card is from multiple hearsay sources, sometimes multiple levels, no? Not terribly reliable.

I would not call The Card terribly reliable - O’Keeffe seems to believe whatever his interview subjects said and done little genuine inquiry. I do believe he accurately reported what people said to him, but it is hardly a good book objectively.

I do think this hearsay, from people at least connected to the origin as I recall it, does obviously beat a single memory of an unknown person saying something else at a show once to someone. That’s a lower level of hearsay.

The whole point of asking for evidence is that I cannot find much actual material to go on, just a lot of myths, conflicting stories, and accounts with little to back them. I don’t have any opinion on where it originated. This is why I was asking for the “research”. There is a lot that could be learned from a partial T206 sheet, if one ever existed (yes, I am aware sheets existed when they were printed in 1909-1911, before someone steps in to correct me with the blindingly obvious).

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is what I was thinking of. This story says Ray refused to say where he got the Wagner. Nothing about a father in Florida.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_19.html

I have not paid much attention to the story over the years. I just read this link, and did watch the Probstein Twitter interview, or IG, or whatever was linked to the board last year.

What do we know about the 1 other Piedmont backed card? Why do serious collectors not consider it a reprint?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I would not call The Card terribly reliable - O’Keeffe seems to believe whatever his interview subjects said and done little genuine inquiry. I do believe he accurately reported what people said to him, but it is hardly a good book objectively.

I do think this hearsay, from people at least connected to the origin as I recall it, does obviously beat a single memory of an unknown person saying something else at a show once to someone. That’s a lower level of hearsay.

The whole point of asking for evidence is that I cannot find much actual material to go on, just a lot of myths, conflicting stories, and accounts with little to back them. I don’t have any opinion on where it originated. This is why I was asking for the “research”. There is a lot that could be learned from a partial T206 sheet, if one ever existed (yes, I am aware sheets existed when they were printed in 1909-1911, before someone steps in to correct me with the blindingly obvious).

Maybe Ted can fill in the gaps, his story has the advantage over the others of being contemporaneous with the event. But at this point I don't think we have much of a clue. It is interesting how at least two stories, although likely feeding off the same source, say Ray refused to say where he got the card. That makes no sense if Ray had already told Sevchuk the card had come from Ray's father.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The other thing that I've pointed out many times, if it was cut from a sheet in the 1980s, or for that matter the 1950s. who cares if it was cut a second time? And if someone cares why?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe Ted can fill in the gaps, his story has the advantage over the others of being contemporaneous with the event. But at this point I don't think we have much of a clue. It is interesting how at least two stories, although likely feeding off the same source, say Ray refused to say where he got the card. That makes no sense if Ray had already told Sevchuk the card had come from Ray's father.

Sevchuk played a significant role in the actual event, any reasonable criteria would consider his testimony more significant than a memory of an unknown person saying something different at a show. I’ve heard things in gossip at shows, those things aren’t really evidence of anything. I hope there is research to clarify this other origin story. Sevchuk may be lying, or misremembering, or O’Keeffee misinterpreted, but it is at least on the record testimony from a significant participant. That’s not a big barrier to clear, but it’s something more than gossip.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Sevchuk played a significant role in the actual event, any reasonable criteria would consider his testimony more significant than a memory of an unknown person saying something different at a show. I’ve heard things in gossip at shows, those things aren’t really evidence of anything. I hope there is research to clarify this other origin story. Sevchuk may be lying, or misremembering, or O’Keeffee misinterpreted, but it is at least on the record testimony from a significant participant. That’s not a big barrier to clear, but it’s something more than gossip.

I know someone who may have some insight, let me check.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

Sevchuk played a significant role in the actual event, any reasonable criteria would consider his testimony more significant than a memory of an unknown person saying something different at a show. I’ve heard things in gossip at shows, those things aren’t really evidence of anything. I hope there is research to clarify this other origin story. Sevchuk may be lying, or misremembering, or O’Keeffee misinterpreted, but it is at least on the record testimony from a significant participant. That’s not a big barrier to clear, but it’s something more than gossip.

Exactly the purpose of this thread, it's not a knock on peoples recollection from shows or in a book it's about what we've learned from the cards themselves and if the Wagner (and Plank) came from a normal production sheet that was cut up in the 80's where are the other examples that would have been on that sheet. And if Wagner and Plank were on a sheet together why are their back numbers so lopsided?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Exactly the purpose of this thread, it's not a knock on peoples recollection from shows or in a book it's about what we've learned from the cards themselves and if the Wagner (and Plank) came from a normal production sheet that was cut up in the 80's where are the other examples that would have been on that sheet. And if Wagner and Plank were on a sheet together why are their back numbers so lopsided?

My only strong opinion is that it does not matter whose theory ends up right or wrong, it would be immensely valuable if we could accumulate the pieces of evidence and simply follow that evidence. It is not an insult to anyone to ask for evidence they say they have to support X conclusion. Some things I thought probable have turned out right, and some wrong. We make the best guesses we can with what is available at that moment, and we should always separate those best guesses from actually known fact to avoid confusion.

I have never seen compelling evidence there was a full sheet, or that Plank was on that same sheet. I think that it seems very unlikely that Plank and Wagner were on the same sheets in production. I don't know if Sevchuk is right and this sheet (though I suspect what people really mean is a partial sheet or even just a strip, and the sheet verbiage is an imprecise terminology being used) was real and did originate in Florida, but so far that seems to be the only real testimony we have. I'd love to see any research countering or supporting it. If the Plank originated from this find, I would suspect we are talking about multiple strips, not a single sheet. But that is just present probabilities and could change if the evidence available is added to.

Out of the uncut material related to the American Tobacco Co. card project of 1909-1912, none of it is the small-size cards we now consider to be 'standard' tobacco. This possible T206 sheet would be immensely valuable to other sets as well if anything could be positively ascertained about it.

[Snowman]

Smells like a reprint to me

[benjulmag]

Here’s what I can add to this discussion.

I knew Bob Sevchuk. He was one of the dealers I did business with. I remember soon after I bought a 1939 Playball set from him he called to tell me he would be receiving from Florida a NrMt-Mt Wagner, and would I be interested in purchasing it. One year prior I had purchased the Wagner I own now, a nice copy that I grade ex-ex+. I told Bob that if in fact he had a NrMt-Mt copy coming, which would be an upgrade on the one I had, I would be interested. He told me to wait until he received the card so he could confirm it was in that condition. When it arrived he called to say he received the card and it really was NrMt-Mt. I asked him the provenance of the card as, to put it mildly, I was astonished that a Wagner in that condition would turn up, especially from Florida. The response I got was vague, saying it came from Florida, with little additional detail. I don’t recall whether he mentioned it came from a flea market, but it is possible he did. I told him I wanted to see it, but that I wanted to bring someone with me to opine whether the card was real. I told him I would get back to him in a few days. Next thing I heard was that he had sold it to Mastro and it was the talk of the Willow Grove show, a show I attended. One rumor floating around was that it was the oversized Wagner sold by Lipset a few years earlier (that currently resides at the HOF) cut down.

As has been noted, a significant number of Wagners originate from Long Island, including most of the high grade copies. Mine came from an old-time hobby veteran, who was from Long Island. The notion of the sheet originating from a flea market in Florida and the cards being in the condition they are, pristine white borders with vivid colors, uncreased and having no reported condition issues, always struck me as remarkable. That said, many New Yorkers do spend their winters in Florida, and amazing things have been known to turn up at flea markets.

What does this all mean? I don’t know. But, I have always been intrigued by the allegation (which was discussed at length in a thread on this Board many years ago) that in the 1950’s T206 reprints were made from the original printing plates, and were assembled in combinations different from how they were assembled in 1909.

In mentioning this I want to stress that I am not saying the card is not genuine. I remember when REA sold the Plank years ago looking at it under a loupe to see if I could discern any differences in the dot matrix pattern. I could not, so at least to a person who claims no expertise in examining dot matrix patterns, it passed that visual test. But there are things about it that are extraordinary, and to me, a person extremely focused on provenance and a believer that counterfeiting is more prevalent and more of a risk than most collectors realize, I do not possess the same degree of confidence in its genuineness that I possess with other Wagners, and I do not believe a forensic examination of its physical components would be an unwarranted exercise.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If it's a twice cut sheet cut reprint, then OMG.

[G1911]

Now this would be a plot twist. I have never seen an actually high quality image of the card.

If the old rumors of the original plates/stones reprint operation should be true, an image probably would not be telling and the card would need to be cracked out for proper examination, which it might pass even then. If the Wagner was worth enough to do this in the fifties, I would think those plates/stones would have been kept. This operation seems unlikely, too perfect to be true, a kind of old wives tale for hobbyists that floats around in every little world and never really checks out but constructed to be almost impossible to disprove. I would not assume the card is authentic though, and suspect that eventually our hobby will be ruined by correct ink and correct stock reprints.

Fake or not, this testimony would seem to confirm Sevchuks story has not really changed on the origin. Which does not make it true, but it is testimony from a key primary source with direct knowledge, which is better than nothing. I am eager to see this research that this was a lie and the card was discovered in NY.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I too fear that eventually, counterfeits will make trimming seem like the good old days.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Now this would be a plot twist. I have never seen an actually high quality image of the card.

If the old rumors of the original plates/stones reprint operation should be true, an image probably would not be telling and the card would need to be cracked out for proper examination, which it might pass even then. If the Wagner was worth enough to do this in the fifties, I would think those plates/stones would have been kept. This operation seems unlikely, too perfect to be true, a kind of old wives tale for hobbyists that floats around in every little world and never really checks out but constructed to be almost impossible to disprove. I would not assume the card is authentic though, and suspect that eventually our hobby will be ruined by correct ink and correct stock reprints.

Fake or not, this testimony would seem to confirm Sevchuks story has not really changed on the origin. Which does not make it true, but it is testimony from a key primary source with direct knowledge, which is better than nothing. I am eager to see this research that this was a lie and the card was discovered in NY.

It would be interesting to know the source of the claim that Alan Ray refused to divulge where he got the card. It's out there now on a couple of sites but without attribution. I mean, who would have asked him other than Sevchuk? I don't think it was Bill because unless I have this wrong, Bill did not deal directly with Ray, only through Sevchuk.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I too fear that eventually, counterfeits will make trimming seem like the good old days.

I ain’t no printing expert, but it seems to me that, while certainly not easy to remake the setup, of a period press of the correct type, making printing stones, and sourcing period correct stock and ink (may not need stock even, it is probably possible to remove the ink off a T card), the hundreds of millions of dollars to be gained by counterfeiting Wagner alone would make it a venture worthwhile. Even a single reprinted EX Wagner would net, what, $10,000,000 for the maker? It seems to me inevitable that reprints will improve (almost all of them are easily spotted today) with the absurd amounts of money sitting there to be made. A single strip faked in such a way would provide lifetime wealth for one’s self, children and grandchildren.

[toppcat]

I knew Sevchuk and was a regular in his Hicksville store for years but never knew about the Wagner. He had a partner at one point called Marty Perry, who might know something. Bob was a genius at ferreting out amazing stuff-he also paid a 10% finder's fee, which likely helped a lot in that regard.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I ain’t no printing expert, but it seems to me that, while certainly not easy to remake the setup, of a period press of the correct type, making printing stones, and sourcing period correct stock and ink (may not need stock even, it is probably possible to remove the ink off a T card), the hundreds of millions of dollars to be gained by counterfeiting Wagner alone would make it a venture worthwhile. Even a single reprinted EX Wagner would net, what, $10,000,000 for the maker? It seems to me inevitable that reprints will improve (almost all of them are easily spotted today) with the absurd amounts of money sitting there to be made. A single strip faked in such a way would provide lifetime wealth for one’s self, children and grandchildren.

I suspect that like every other technological advance, once perfected, it will become easier and cheaper to do and we'll start to see more and more of it. Hopefully not.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It would be interesting to know the source of the claim that Alan Ray refused to divulge where he got the card. It's out there now on a couple of sites but without attribution. I mean, who would have asked him other than Sevchuk? I don't think it was Bill because unless I have this wrong, Bill did not deal directly with Ray, only through Sevchuk.

I think it may be a slight misstatement. It seems Ray refused to publicly state where he got the card (which seems confirmable, he never has), which doesn’t mean much one way or another (it could be for any number of reasons, wanting to keep a source private, not seeking publicity to his father, or something as grand as not wanting to steer attention to a reprinting operation or by giving a lie that might be proven false later). That he did this doesn’t mean he didn’t or wouldn’t have told his dealer partner on the piece. On its face, it’s not an oddity. His business partner is in the know on the details, more than what is said in public. That’s normal. Of course, people in general have little relationship to honesty whatsoever, and tend to say whatever they think is beneficial to themselves in a particular moment without regard for truth. Many seem to struggle to separate their narrative from actual truth and come to conflate the two as the same exact thing. It’s not a lot of evidence, just one testimony. That testimony makes sense, Wagners have been found in odder places than a 1980’s flea market, it is internally consistent, and it doesn’t contradict anything we know to be true. Any extant research would be immensely valuable in evaluating if this seems the likeliest case or not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well, it isn't Rashomon, but it's interesting what we can and cannot reconstruct of this.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Here’s what I can add to this discussion.

I knew Bob Sevchuk. He was one of the dealers I did business with. I remember soon after I bought a 1939 Playball set from him he called to tell me he would be receiving from Florida a NrMt-Mt Wagner, and would I be interested in purchasing it. One year prior I had purchased the Wagner I own now, a nice copy that I grade ex-ex+. I told Bob that if in fact he had NrMt-Mt copy coming, which would be an upgrade on the one I had, I would be interested. He told me to wait until he received the card so he could confirm it was in that condition. When it arrived he called to say he received the card and it really was NrMt-Mt. I asked him the provenance of the card as, to put it mildly, I was astonished that a Wagner in that condition would turn up, especially from Florida. The response I got was vague, saying it came from Florida, with little additional detail. I don’t recall whether he mentioned it came from a flea market, but it is possible he did. I told him I wanted to see it, but that I wanted to bring someone with me to opine whether the card was real. I told him I would get back to him in a few days. Next thing I heard was that he had sold it to Mastro and it was the talk of the Willow Grove show, a show I attended. One rumor floating around was that it was the oversized Wagner sold by Lipset a few years earlier (that currently resides at the HOF) cut down.

As has been noted, a significant number of Wagners originate from Long Island, including most of the high grade copies. Mine came from an old-time hobby veteran, who was from Long Island. The notion of the sheet originating from a flea market in Florida and the cards being in the condition they are, pristine white borders with vivid colors, uncreased and having no reported condition issues, always struck me as remarkable. That said, many New Yorkers do spend their winters in Florida, and amazing things have been known to turn up at flea markets.

What does this all mean? I don’t know. But, I have always been intrigued by the allegation (which was discussed at length in a thread on this Board many years ago) that in the 1950’s T206 reprints were made from the original printing plates, and were assembled in combinations different from how they were assembled in 1909.

In mentioning this I want to stress that I am not saying the card is not genuine. I remember when REA sold the Plank years ago looking at it under a loupe to see if I could discern any differences in the dot matrix pattern. I could not, so it least to a person who claims no expertise in examining dot matrix patterns, it passed that visual test. But there are things about it that are extraordinary, and to me, a person extremely focused on provenance and a believer that counterfeiting is more prevalent and more of a risk than most collectors realize, I do not possess the same degree of confidence in its genuineness that I possess with other Wagners, and I do not believe a forensic examination of its physical components would be an unwarranted exercise.

Thanks for the response Corey. It's not the same as having it in hand but I've seen large enough scans of the Plank and I don't see anything to indicate that it's not genuine. I've never seen a really good scan of the Wagner, I did see it up close at the Atlantic City National in 2003 but I had only been collecting T206's for a couple of years and didn't know much about them at the time.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I ain’t no printing expert, but it seems to me that, while certainly not easy to remake the setup, of a period press of the correct type, making printing stones, and sourcing period correct stock and ink (may not need stock even, it is probably possible to remove the ink off a T card), the hundreds of millions of dollars to be gained by counterfeiting Wagner alone would make it a venture worthwhile. Even a single reprinted EX Wagner would net, what, $10,000,000 for the maker? It seems to me inevitable that reprints will improve (almost all of them are easily spotted today) with the absurd amounts of money sitting there to be made. A single strip faked in such a way would provide lifetime wealth for one’s self, children and grandchildren.

Reprints are now and have been undetectable for decades. Seriously people have counterfeited complete historic books that have fooled ALL the experts. When entire books can be counterfeited a beyond simple baseball card has to be like childs play.

But don't worry everyone the cards you collect isn't the typwe of cards anyone would counterfeit or alter.

Here is a thread I posted on counterfeiting. https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=289753

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Reprints are now and have been undetectable for decades. Seriously people have counterfeited complete historic books that have fooled ALL the experts. When entire books can be counterfeited a beyond simple baseball card has to be like childs play.

But don't worry everyone the cards you collect isn't the typwe of cards anyone would counterfeit or alter.

Here is a thread I posted on counterfeiting. https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=289753

I wouldn't be shocked if it has been done, but I have not seen any actual evidence. I prefer to follow the evidence.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I wouldn't be shocked if it has been done, but I have not seen any actual evidence. I prefer to follow the evidence.

My post has nothing to do with a specific card. Just showing that it would be beyond easy to do for someone with a little knowledge and willingness to learn.

People always bring up the 52 Mantle and the T206 Wagner and say why don't they make/counterfeit them. For the same reason nobody tries to counterfeit the Mona Lisa.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

My post has nothing to do with a specific card. Just showing that it would be beyond easy to do for someone with a little knowledge and willingness to learn.

People always bring up the 52 Mantle and the T206 Wagner and say why don't they make/counterfeit them. For the same reason nobody tries to counterfeit the Mona Lisa.

I am not referring to a specific card either. I've heard many tales of imperceptible fakes of many baseball cards, but nary evidence. Perhaps that evidence is out there, but I have never seen it.

[Lorewalker]

I am far from an expert on T206s or even the theories or stories behind the provenance on the PSA 8 but has that it could be a "vintage" reprint or an example that was not intended to be placed into packs of cigs, if I have read this correctly, was not one that I had heard.

The being cut twice, once from a strip or sheet and then again by Mastro, years later, was nothing new but not sure I ever read the info that benjulmag shared today. Appreciate this sharing it.

Very interesting developments. Not sure this ever gets any more clear than it is now.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by G1911

Now this would be a plot twist. I have never seen an actually high quality image of the card.

If the old rumors of the original plates/stones reprint operation should be true, an image probably would not be telling and the card would need to be cracked out for proper examination, which it might pass even then. If the Wagner was worth enough to do this in the fifties, I would think those plates/stones would have been kept. This operation seems unlikely, too perfect to be true, a kind of old wives tale for hobbyists that floats around in every little world and never really checks out but constructed to be almost impossible to disprove. I would not assume the card is authentic though, and suspect that eventually our hobby will be ruined by correct ink and correct stock reprints.

Fake or not, this testimony would seem to confirm Sevchuks story has not really changed on the origin. Which does not make it true, but it is testimony from a key primary source with direct knowledge, which is better than nothing. I am eager to see this research that this was a lie and the card was discovered in NY.

Greg,

Please understand that to us old-time collectors, whose obsessions have nothing to do with the monetary value of the cards, the worth of the cards was not any motivating factor in our collecting actions. I vividly reminder as a kid in the 60s voraciously gobbling up reprints and reissues (e.g., 1960 and 1961 Fleers) and being beyond thrilled. So the notion that any such collectors, who had the opportunity to create their own fantasy reprints from original printing plates, needed to be motivated by financial gain IMO is totally inaccurate.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Greg,

Please understand that to us old-time collectors, whose obsessions have nothing to do with the monetary value of the cards, the worth of the cards was not any motivating factor in our collecting actions. I vividly reminder as a kid in the 60s voraciously gobbling up reprints and reissues (e.g., 1960 and 1961 Fleers) and being beyond thrilled. So the notion that any such collectors, who had the opportunity to create their own fantasy reprints from original printing plates, needed to be motivated by financial gain IMO is totally inaccurate.

I do not think that is an age based mindset. I’m in the group who hopes the market completely collapses so I can put together my sets cheaper.

Alright, we will remove the financial aspect of faking T206 Wagners (which had value already). It still leaves the problem, that it is an old wives type tale that is present in every hobby and every group, without any real evidence that has ever surfaced for it. I’ve heard stories of these perfect old reprints for near 20 years, but never an attribution, much less evidence. To believe one of these gossip tales, of the ‘perfect crime’, without any evidence or even source for the origin of the long standing tale, would not be reasonable of me. It would be markedly unreasonable. I have always found that reason is a better guide than hearsay.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I am not referring to a specific card either. I've heard many tales of imperceptible fakes of many baseball cards, but nary evidence. Perhaps that evidence is out there, but I have never seen it.

LOL, If it is undetectable how would you ever see it.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, If it is undetectable how would you ever see it.

LOL, how did they figure out those historic books were actually fakes? Most conspiracies come undone by the tongue.

I know critical reasoning is very unpopular around here, but believing gossip sans evidence is foolish. I believe what evidence suggests. If I see no evidence to support a conclusion, then I do not draw that conclusion. It is not complicated.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

LOL, how did they figure out those historic books were actually fakes? Most conspiracies come undone by the tongue.

I know critical reasoning is very unpopular around here, but believing gossip sans evidence is foolish. I believe what evidence suggests. If I see no evidence to support a conclusion, then I do not draw that conclusion. It is not complicated.

If you read the entire story on the book in the link the counterfeiter left a tell it was fake so when/if he got caught he would do way less time. Watching the PBS special is highly recommended. I know I really enjoyed it.