Some of the mysteries and myths surrounding the most famous card in the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The story in The Card is from multiple hearsay sources, sometimes multiple levels, no? Not terribly reliable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is what I was thinking of. This story says Ray refused to say where he got the Wagner. Nothing about a father in Florida.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_19.html

[Peter_Spaeth]

From Smithsonian Magazine, for what it's worth.

In 1986, a new specimen of the card—in better condition than any other—emerged out of nowhere, it seemed. An owner of a Long Island sports memorabilia store announced that a man named Alan Ray was selling his 1909 T206 Wagner for $25,000. Ray would not say where he acquired the card, to this day keeping mum about what the card was up to between 1909 and 1986.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is what I was thinking of. This story says Ray refused to say where he got the Wagner. Nothing about a father in Florida.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_19.html

I have not paid much attention to the story over the years. I just read this link, and did watch the Probstein Twitter interview, or IG, or whatever was linked to the board last year.

What do we know about the 1 other Piedmont backed card? Why do serious collectors not consider it a reprint?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The story in The Card is from multiple hearsay sources, sometimes multiple levels, no? Not terribly reliable.

I would not call The Card terribly reliable - O’Keeffe seems to believe whatever his interview subjects said and done little genuine inquiry. I do believe he accurately reported what people said to him, but it is hardly a good book objectively.

I do think this hearsay, from people at least connected to the origin as I recall it, does obviously beat a single memory of an unknown person saying something else at a show once to someone. That’s a lower level of hearsay.

The whole point of asking for evidence is that I cannot find much actual material to go on, just a lot of myths, conflicting stories, and accounts with little to back them. I don’t have any opinion on where it originated. This is why I was asking for the “research”. There is a lot that could be learned from a partial T206 sheet, if one ever existed (yes, I am aware sheets existed when they were printed in 1909-1911, before someone steps in to correct me with the blindingly obvious).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I would not call The Card terribly reliable - O’Keeffe seems to believe whatever his interview subjects said and done little genuine inquiry. I do believe he accurately reported what people said to him, but it is hardly a good book objectively.

I do think this hearsay, from people at least connected to the origin as I recall it, does obviously beat a single memory of an unknown person saying something else at a show once to someone. That’s a lower level of hearsay.

The whole point of asking for evidence is that I cannot find much actual material to go on, just a lot of myths, conflicting stories, and accounts with little to back them. I don’t have any opinion on where it originated. This is why I was asking for the “research”. There is a lot that could be learned from a partial T206 sheet, if one ever existed (yes, I am aware sheets existed when they were printed in 1909-1911, before someone steps in to correct me with the blindingly obvious).

Maybe Ted can fill in the gaps, his story has the advantage over the others of being contemporaneous with the event. But at this point I don't think we have much of a clue. It is interesting how at least two stories, although likely feeding off the same source, say Ray refused to say where he got the card. That makes no sense if Ray had already told Sevchuk the card had come from Ray's father.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The other thing that I've pointed out many times, if it was cut from a sheet in the 1980s, or for that matter the 1950s. who cares if it was cut a second time? And if someone cares why?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe Ted can fill in the gaps, his story has the advantage over the others of being contemporaneous with the event. But at this point I don't think we have much of a clue. It is interesting how at least two stories, although likely feeding off the same source, say Ray refused to say where he got the card. That makes no sense if Ray had already told Sevchuk the card had come from Ray's father.

Sevchuk played a significant role in the actual event, any reasonable criteria would consider his testimony more significant than a memory of an unknown person saying something different at a show. I’ve heard things in gossip at shows, those things aren’t really evidence of anything. I hope there is research to clarify this other origin story. Sevchuk may be lying, or misremembering, or O’Keeffee misinterpreted, but it is at least on the record testimony from a significant participant. That’s not a big barrier to clear, but it’s something more than gossip.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Sevchuk played a significant role in the actual event, any reasonable criteria would consider his testimony more significant than a memory of an unknown person saying something different at a show. I’ve heard things in gossip at shows, those things aren’t really evidence of anything. I hope there is research to clarify this other origin story. Sevchuk may be lying, or misremembering, or O’Keeffee misinterpreted, but it is at least on the record testimony from a significant participant. That’s not a big barrier to clear, but it’s something more than gossip.

I know someone who may have some insight, let me check.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

Sevchuk played a significant role in the actual event, any reasonable criteria would consider his testimony more significant than a memory of an unknown person saying something different at a show. I’ve heard things in gossip at shows, those things aren’t really evidence of anything. I hope there is research to clarify this other origin story. Sevchuk may be lying, or misremembering, or O’Keeffee misinterpreted, but it is at least on the record testimony from a significant participant. That’s not a big barrier to clear, but it’s something more than gossip.

Exactly the purpose of this thread, it's not a knock on peoples recollection from shows or in a book it's about what we've learned from the cards themselves and if the Wagner (and Plank) came from a normal production sheet that was cut up in the 80's where are the other examples that would have been on that sheet. And if Wagner and Plank were on a sheet together why are their back numbers so lopsided?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Exactly the purpose of this thread, it's not a knock on peoples recollection from shows or in a book it's about what we've learned from the cards themselves and if the Wagner (and Plank) came from a normal production sheet that was cut up in the 80's where are the other examples that would have been on that sheet. And if Wagner and Plank were on a sheet together why are their back numbers so lopsided?

My only strong opinion is that it does not matter whose theory ends up right or wrong, it would be immensely valuable if we could accumulate the pieces of evidence and simply follow that evidence. It is not an insult to anyone to ask for evidence they say they have to support X conclusion. Some things I thought probable have turned out right, and some wrong. We make the best guesses we can with what is available at that moment, and we should always separate those best guesses from actually known fact to avoid confusion.

I have never seen compelling evidence there was a full sheet, or that Plank was on that same sheet. I think that it seems very unlikely that Plank and Wagner were on the same sheets in production. I don't know if Sevchuk is right and this sheet (though I suspect what people really mean is a partial sheet or even just a strip, and the sheet verbiage is an imprecise terminology being used) was real and did originate in Florida, but so far that seems to be the only real testimony we have. I'd love to see any research countering or supporting it. If the Plank originated from this find, I would suspect we are talking about multiple strips, not a single sheet. But that is just present probabilities and could change if the evidence available is added to.

Out of the uncut material related to the American Tobacco Co. card project of 1909-1912, none of it is the small-size cards we now consider to be 'standard' tobacco. This possible T206 sheet would be immensely valuable to other sets as well if anything could be positively ascertained about it.

[Snowman]

Smells like a reprint to me