Who is the greatest player of all time by position?

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I like this list, but W Johnson or Clemens over Young, and Bench over Piazza.

Thanks! I just can’t get over Cy’s records which is why I think he is my RHP. Also I’m a big Mets fan so that does come in to play with Piazza, but his offense just dwarfs other catchers so that’s how I rationalize the pick.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

Thanks! I just can’t get over Cy’s records which is why I think he is my RHP. Also I’m a big Mets fan so that does come in to play with Piazza, but his offense just dwarfs other catchers so that’s how I rationalize the pick.

Walter Johnson's metrics dwarf Cys.

Bench, Piazza and Fisk are virtually tied in oWAR, Piazza's offense does not dwarf Bench's.

[isiahfan]

Not having ARod on your lists....I will happily take him over just about any infielder let alone SS or 3B

tsk tsk

[G1911]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

Not having ARod on your lists....I will happily take him over just about any infielder let alone SS or 3B

tsk tsk

Wagner fares better than Rodriguez in the modern metrics (like WAR, OPS+), even with them being designed around the modern game. Also, he wasn’t on performance enhancing drugs his whole career. I have a hard time taking Rodriguez over him when his drug adjusted totals are pretty close but not even better than Wagner who did it honestly.

If you put Rodriguez at 3B he probably comes out #1 if you ignore the steroids.

I see why one would pick him, but I don’t see why it’s surprising others don’t.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Walter Johnson's metrics dwarf Cys.

Bench, Piazza and Fisk are virtually tied in oWAR, Piazza's offense does not dwarf Bench's.

You are absolutely right about the Big Train, I formally change Cy to Walter.

As for catchers though, I stand by my Piazza choice, his offensive stats don't exactly dwarf Bench's, but they are quite a bit better. Piazza's slash line destroys that of Bench. Piazza was easily the greatest hitting catcher of all time, so it comes down to the glove.

Here are the offensive and defensive stats and Bench shines in throwing runners out and Total Fielding Runs Above Average (Piazza's is terrible), but Piazza beats them all in range (he was underrated on defense, although not exactly great). Very interesting stuff. I would definitely put Piazza as the GOAT at the catching position, especially after seeing these comparisons.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's a reasonable choice. But given the importance of defense at that position, I would give the advantage to Bench, and I might even take I Rod Berra and Carter over him.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

You are absolutely right about the Big Train, I formally change Cy to Walter.

As for catchers though, I stand by my Piazza choice, his offensive stats don't exactly dwarf Bench's, but they are quite a bit better. Piazza's slash line destroys that of Bench. Piazza was easily the greatest hitting catcher of all time, so it comes down to the glove.

Here are the offensive and defensive stats and Bench shines in throwing runners out and Total Fielding Runs Above Average (Piazza's is terrible), but Piazza beats them all in range (he was underrated on defense, although not exactly great). Very interesting stuff. I would definitely put Piazza as the GOAT at the catching position, especially after seeing these comparisons.

Yeah, I agree Piazza was a bit underrated on defense. He actually had a career positive defensive WAR (albeit slightly)

But overall, I think it's hard to go with anyone but Johnny Bench or Josh Gibson.

I do want to give a shout out to Campanella though. I think his peak was really strong, and he is the All-Time leader in % throwing out would-be base-stealers and an unbelievable 57.4%

[Mark17]

It only makes sense that from 1900 through 1950, there would've been at least one black player who merits inclusion on the list. From what I have read, Josh Gibson was considered perhaps the best, by his peers. I have to have him as my catcher based on that logic.

People want to discount him due to lack of accurate statistics, inferior competition, or whatever. But if he was the best of his contemporaries, and his contemporaries (blacks) as a group, were comparable to other ballplayers, then I don't think the stat thing is enough to exclude him.

Put another way, if we made a list of the top 100 players since 1950, I'll bet about half would be black. I'm thinking, that ratio was probably less, but not by much, during the 1900-1950 era.

So I'm thinking Red nailed it with the first post in this thread, after swapping in Walter.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Mark17

It only makes sense that from 1900 through 1950, there would've been at least one black player who merits inclusion on the list. From what I have read, Josh Gibson was considered perhaps the best, by his peers. I have to have him as my catcher based on that logic.

People want to discount him due to lack of accurate statistics, inferior competition, or whatever. But if he was the best of his contemporaries, and his contemporaries (blacks) as a group, were comparable to other ballplayers, then I don't think the stat thing is enough to exclude him.

Put another way, if we made a list of the top 100 players since 1950, I'll bet about half would be black. I'm thinking, that ratio was probably less, but not by much, during the 1900-1950 era.

So I'm thinking Red nailed it with the first post in this thread, after swapping in Walter.

Here is an interesting article where ESPN ranked the Top Catchers of All time. They have Josh Gibson #2 and Bench #1.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/pag...-catchers-ever

After Reading it I would actually agree that Josh Gibson should be #1 All Time at Catcher

[Carter08]

All due respect for Schmidt and Brett and others but the position that surprises me the most is third base. Sort of surprised there hasn’t been a truly dominant winner for that position. I think of A Rod as more of a SS and also a cheater. Could be that third base is very dependent on defense so you can’t just throw a good hitter over there and hope for the best.