Please help settle a FB debate. Was the T206 Wagner EVER made with a Piedmont back?

[bobbyw8469]

Enquiring minds want to know....Someone on Facebook is telling me that the T206 Wagner WAS INDEED produced with a Piedmont back. My apologies as I am sure this has been brought up many years ago.

[darwinbulldog]

Yes. The PSA 8 is one of them. It was not factory-issued as a Piedmont however.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think there are any confirmed examples of a Piedmont Wagner from a pack, but others may correct me.

[Rich Klein]

I believe there are 3 known and in major TPG holders and I've seen two of them.

[chriskim]

Why bother checking FB? FB is loaded with haters! Stick with net54baseball.com here please!

[mrreality68]

Hi

On this forum there was a link that showed all the known wagners with pictures front and back

Does anyone have that link. That would help

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Hi

On this forum there was a link that showed all the known wagners with pictures front and back

Does anyone have that link. That would help

https://t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

[cgjackson222]

According to PSA there are "approximately 60-75 or so known (total) copies in the hobby today. Keep in mind that most of the surviving Wagners have Sweet Caporal backs. Only a few exhibit Piedmont backs, which includes the finest example of them all."

When they refer to the "finest example of all" they are of course referring to the PSA 8 Gretzky copy (which was trimmed/hand cut from a sheet).

https://www.psacard.com/cardfacts/ba...s-wagner/18155

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

According to PSA there are "approximately 60-75 or so known (total) copies in the hobby today. Keep in mind that most of the surviving Wagners have Sweet Caporal backs. Only a few exhibit Piedmont backs, which includes the finest example of them all."

When they refer to the "finest example of all" they are of course referring to the PSA 8 Gretzky copy (which was trimmed).

https://www.psacard.com/cardfacts/ba...s-wagner/18155

Trimmed and was never in a pack.

[profholt82]

As we all know, there's nothing more important than being right on the internet. Godspeed, bobby w.

[53toppscollector]

t206 resource has this scan of the Piedmont

[vintagetoppsguy]

The Cobb/Edwards Honus Wagner had a Piedmont back and it was...oh, wait...never mind.

[mrvster]

the few piedy s are printers scrap....

similiar to the planks scraps...

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by profholt82

As we all know, there's nothing more important than being right on the internet. Godspeed, bobby w.

Wins come so infrequently I take them as I get them.

[profholt82]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Wins come so infrequently I take them as I get them.

I realize now that I should have put a wink emoji or something there. I hope it was obvious that I was being tongue in cheek.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The Cobb/Edwards Honus Wagner had a Piedmont back and it was...oh, wait...never mind.

Have they finally given up?

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Have they finally given up?

That story always makes me cringe. Even with close shots of the card in the various documentaries and videos that have been done on it, you could tell it was fake. I'm surprised the story got anywhere near as much traction as it did.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Trimmed and was never in a pack.

Peter, correct me if I am wrong, but the story I recall was that the Honus with a Piedmont back, now known to be trimmed and graded by PSA, was on a sheet bought by Rob Lifson from a dealer on Long Island and then purchased by Bill Mastro, who then trimmed it and caused a lifetime of enmity between the two. Others know the whole story better than me.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Peter, correct me if I am wrong, but the story I recall was that the Honus with a Piedmont back, now known to be trimmed and graded by PSA, was on a sheet bought by Rob Lifson from a dealer on Long Island and then purchased by Bill Mastro, who then trimmed it and caused a lifetime of enmity between the two. Others know the whole story better than me.

That is the basic story, yes. Or Bill bought it, but was fronted the funds by Rob. Keith Olbermann claims to have seen "that Wagner" before it was doctored by Mastro.

[egri]

The real question is, did Andrew's Wagner have a Piedmont back?

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by egri

The real question is, did Andrew's Wagner have a Piedmont back?

One of the great mysteries of card collecting that may never be answered...

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

That is the basic story, yes. Or Bill bought it, but was fronted the funds by Rob. Keith Olbermann claims to have seen "that Wagner" before it was doctored by Mastro.

If the “Wagner” was originally cut off a sheet, why is it considered trimmed and not just sheet cut? I always thought that trimmed referred to cards that were issued to the public in a specific size and then cut down afterwards.

Or, is it just semantics?

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

If the “Wagner” was originally cut off a sheet, why is it considered trimmed and not just sheet cut? I always thought that trimmed referred to cards that were issued to the public in a specific size and then cut down afterwards.

Or, is it just semantics?

In this case, the Gretzky Wagner was not factory cut to begin with. It was part of a larger sample group with other cards in it, or was likely from a sample strip or factory oddity. The assertion of alteration here is due to the fact that it was hand cut to make it look like it was a factory issue that would have gone into a package of Piedmont cigarettes.

At some point you could certainly argue that all this is semantics — if the card measures within tolerance, which PSA claims it does. But the fact of the matter is when you have an item so nearly unique as this, and it has an established provenance, the real story comes out sooner or later. Those familiar with this card claim it is altered because it was handcut, and it’s in a slab that represents it as a factory cut issue. Then there was the whole slip up were Bill Mastro admitted that that is exactly what he did to it…

Either way, whether you consider that card altered or not - there is no disputing the fact that it is still the most valuable baseball card in the world.


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[robertsmithnocure]

Thanks for the explanation.

I have heard of cards (slabbed or not) being referred to as being “sheet cut” and always wondered why the “Wagner” was not. I assume that the majority of “sheet cut” cards are hand cut so that they resemble a “factory” card just like the “Wagner.”

[53toppscollector]

My biggest issue with the Gretzky Wagner is that the way it is graded is simply not correct. There are tons of T206s available to buy that are clearly hand cut/printers scrap, including all of the Old Mill SL Browns. Everyone knows those cards are printers scrap, they get PSA A or SGC A grades, and they still command an absolute fortune because they are incredibly rare. The Gretzky Wagner should be graded a PSA A, and because of its provenance and story, it would still command an astronomical figure.

Hand cut/trimmed cards should get an A letter grade, because that is what they are, authentic. Numerical grades should be assigned to cards that were in packs and in circulation.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector

My biggest issue with the Gretzky Wagner is that the way it is graded is simply not correct. There are tons of T206s available to buy that are clearly hand cut/printers scrap, including all of the Old Mill SL Browns. Everyone knows those cards are printers scrap, they get PSA A or SGC A grades, and they still command an absolute fortune because they are incredibly rare. The Gretzky Wagner should be graded a PSA A, and because of its provenance and story, it would still command an astronomical figure.

Absolutely agree. It would command an astronomical figure today. The problem was that back in 1991, or whenever PSA first slabbed it - professional grading was brand new, and there were a lot of unknowns. There was a lot of speculation that it would only be worth a fraction of the estimate if PSA officially called it altered or only "Authentic", and I think the fears there won out. One grader even admitted that he knew it was trimmed, (hand cut) but he wasn't going to call it that because it would be "bad for the hobby."

It would be interesting to see what PSA would do about that card now if it's owner (Ken Kendrick of the Arizona Diamondbacks...) ever called them on it. The provenance is bulletproof at this point; Mastro got caught admitting on a wire recording that he had indeed cut the card from a sheet. I'm not sure how even PSA today could make a claim with a straight face that it deserves to be in a PSA 8 holder.

[chriskim]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Absolutely agree. It would command an astronomical figure today. The problem was that back in 1991, or whenever PSA first slabbed it - professional grading was brand new, and there were a lot of unknowns. There was a lot of speculation that it would only be worth a fraction of the estimate if PSA officially called it altered or only "Authentic", and I think the fears there won out. One grader even admitted that he knew it was trimmed, (hand cut) but he wasn't going to call it that because it would be "bad for the hobby."

It would be interesting to see what PSA would do about that card now if it's owner (Ken Kendrick of the Arizona Diamondbacks...) ever called them on it. The provenance is bulletproof at this point; Mastro got caught admitting on a wire recording that he had indeed cut the card from a sheet. I'm not sure how even PSA today could make a claim with a straight face that it deserves to be in a PSA 8 holder.

That PSA8 Wagner worth a lot more than Ken paid, so he wouldn't complain to PSA. On the other hand, pretty sure PSA is more than happy to buy that Wagner from Ken at his purchase price.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by chriskim

That PSA8 Wagner worth a lot more than Ken paid, so he wouldn't complain to PSA. On the other hand, pretty sure PSA is more than happy to buy that Wagner from Ken at his purchase price.

I'm not totally certain that Mr. Kendrick doesn't have to worry about money, but it's a fair assumption if nothing else at this point.

Suppose from a collector perspective he at some point agreed it should not be a PSA 8, and requested it be re-holdered as Authentic or AA? Would PSA honor that request?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I'm not totally certain that Mr. Kendrick doesn't have to worry about money, but it's a fair assumption if nothing else at this point.

Suppose from a collector perspective he at some point agreed it should not be a PSA 8, and requested it be re-holdered as Authentic or AA? Would PSA honor that request?

I don't see why not, but at that point it's regrading the card, not just reholdering, so the grading fee would be $10,000. Hopefully for that price they'd evaluate it carefully enough to detect the trimming that we're all already aware of.

[Wite3]

It is trimmed...for sure...it would not grade today. This being graded was more a publicity stunt for PSA and the owners.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by chriskim

That PSA8 Wagner worth a lot more than Ken paid, so he wouldn't complain to PSA. On the other hand, pretty sure PSA is more than happy to buy that Wagner from Ken at his purchase price.

any of us would be happy to buy that Wagner from ken at his purchase price.

and happily display it in their collection