Pwcc Csg partnership

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by BobC

I assume there are already records and such documenting the cards being consigned for auction. This sounds like it would be similar to people consigning raw cards to you and your auctions, and at their request, you are handling the grading of those cards for them in preparation of the auction. If you already have things outlined and spelled out in the consignment paperwork, it seems like having your consignors doing a whole other set of grading paperwork is extra work, and a bit redundant, which is likely something your consignors would rather not have to deal with.

And since it seems that graded cards typically do better than raw cards in auctions, doing something like this is sort of a win-win for everyone involved then. The consignors get higher prices, the AH gets higher commissions, and the bidders get already graded cards.y

I would not have been surprised to hear of CSG eventually offering a similar type of service somehow in conjunction with their partnership as Ebay's authenticator. And that still may happen. Overall, seems like a somewhat savvy move on the part of CGC/CSG to get in front of all the other TPGs as a choice for someone having their raw cards graded. And the more CSG graded cards getting out there, they moree they are recognized and the faster they are accepted by everyone in the hobby.

What about PWCC's reputation for pushing altered cards through grading? Is this a concern?

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

What about PWCC's reputation for pushing altered cards through grading? Is this a concern?

Me? I would say yes!

[kmac32]

Just got a submission back from CSG of S74 silks. Just wanted them in slabs to protect the cards and felt that the service was actually fair and good. Cards were graded for $20 whick was certainly better that the armed robbery that SGC tried to pull off on the same cards that I told them to send back as the charges they wanted were ridiculous. i will still use SGC for normal submissions but for what I was looking for, this was a cost reasonable alternative.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by kmac32

Just got a submission back from CSG of S74 silks. Just wanted them in slabs to protect the cards and felt that the service was actually fair and good. Cards were graded for $20 whick was certainly better that the armed robbery that SGC tried to pull off on the same cards that I told them to send back as the charges they wanted were ridiculous. i will still use SGC for normal submissions but for what I was looking for, this was a cost reasonable alternative.

Ken,

That's cool. Didn't know they graded silks. What did you have graded, white silks, colored silks, or both? And if you did have some white silks graded, did any have the advertising backs still attached?

And of course I'm curious as to how good a job you think they did in the grading. I know for the white version silks, if SGC grades one without the advertising back still attached, they will only give the silk an "A" authentic grade. The back has to still be attached to get a numeric grade. And of course, since the white ad-backed silks were normally folded when put into cigarette packs, SGC graded them accordingly due to the creases across the middle. Would love to hear what you thought of CSG's grades they gave you then.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

What about PWCC's reputation for pushing altered cards through grading? Is this a concern?

Pete,

It absolutely is, but why is there so much anger and resentment apparently being directed at CSG, who haven't even done anything with PWCC yet? Just because they are agreeing to grade cards submitted through PWCC doesn't automatically mean they are in cahoots with anyone in passing altered cards as something they're not. There are various reasons I can see and think of to at least give CSG the benefit of the doubt, and not just wholly condemn them right out of the box simply by guilt from association with PWCC.

1. CSG's goal is to get their graded cards out in the marketplace, and accepted and respected by the hobby. It is not to boost their bottom line by falling in with parties known for providing altered items, and then committing fraud by knowingly concealing such alterations from the public.

2.. Their parent company, CCG, already has I believe the largest and most respected comic book and currency grading/authenticating companies in the world as part of their holdings. Why would they ever in their right minds want to then take any chance of tarnishing those existing businesses and reputations by suddenly having this latest venture of theirs knowingly become involved with known fraudsters, and actively take part in supporting or facilitating such fraud?

3. I would have to believe CSG is fully aware of the past accusations and issues directed at PWCC and some parties they have worked with, as well as the FBI investigations supposedly that have (Still are?) taken place. I would think (hope) that CSG had seen fit to do enough due diligence before entering into this new venture with PWCC so that they didn't just start this new service up, only to have the FBI come knocking on their door a few weeks later to confiscate suspected fraudulent items, and inform them they had shut PWCC down and indicted and arrested various PWCC personnel for criminal activities.

4. And because of the past accusations and continued scrutiny/ongoing investigations, I would find it extremely hard to believe that if PWCC had ever been involved with any fraudulent alteration activities in the past, that they would not now still be knowingly involved and continuing those same fraudulent activities, and to have somehow gotten CSG to be an accessory to them.

5. As I mentioned in an earlier post, CSG charging a flat fee for grading services removes a bias and potential conflict of interest. In the past, and really still today, a TPG that charges a grading fee based on the value of a card would have a possible incentive to overlook alterations and give cards high numeric grades, thus increasing the card's value, and as a result how much they get paid for grading it. If CSG charges a simple flat rate for all cards, that removes an incentive for them to willingly/knowingly give any altered card a higher numeric grade, and thus a higher than deserved value.


The main thing to watch for is that once this new program is up and running, how good are CSG and their graders at detecting and reporting doctored and altered cards? We already know through the BODA efforts that tons of altered and doctored cards have gotten past graders and into numerically graded slabs of all the major past and present TPGs. Maybe with the exception of CSG, I honestly don't know. Have the BODA guys detected and reported any doctored/altered cards in CSG slabs yet? Regardless, I think that with the apparent tools and abilities of these card doctors today, it is inevitable that some altered cards will continue to get into numerically graded slabs of all the TPGs, including CSG. The test for CSG will be if after partnering up with PWCC there starts to be an inordinate number of altered cards being discovered in CSG slabs sold through PWCC's marketplace. I hope not, for various reasons given above, and for CSG's sake.

[ullmandds]

BOB

I harbor no anger or resentment towards csg? I've mentioned numerous times that i'd give them a try to grade things like t202 end panels, cut up strips from panels, and some other rare oddball things i have that noone else will grade.


You claim to be advocating for folks to give csg a fair shake yet your words sound more like someone advocating for them with an "interest" in their success?

You seem unconvinced of pwcc's "indiscretions" of the past which have been proven ad nauseum.

5. As i mentioned in an earlier post, csg charging a flat fee for grading services removes a bias and potential conflict of interest. In the past, and really still today, a tpg that charges a grading fee based on the value of a card would have a possible incentive to overlook alterations and give cards high numeric grades, thus increasing the card's value, and as a result how much they get paid for grading it. If csg charges a simple flat rate for all cards, that removes an incentive for them to willingly/knowingly give any altered card a higher numeric grade, and thus a higher than deserved value.

I think this is fantastic.


pwcc has gotten many cards past sgc/pwcc/beckett in the past...why would they not be able to do the same with csg?

I harbor no ill will towards csg...but i do towards pwcc. And to some of us...maybe not the masses...but to me there are more important things than "the cards!"

[Yoda]

If both sides play it straight, this move might have a small market impression. IMO, the key will be the expertise and professionalism of SCG graders to determine which cards have been worked on and graded accordingly before ending up in a PWCC auction. There are so many newbie graders out there now that may not have faced some of the nuanced doctoring done by slippery submitters.
The pricing structure, however, is very attractive if you want an SGC graded card in a PWCC auction.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Yoda

If both sides play it straight, this move might have a small market impression. IMO, the key will be the expertise and professionalism of SCG graders to determine which cards have been worked on and graded accordingly before ending up in a PWCC auction. There are so many newbie graders out there now that may not have faced some of the nuanced doctoring done by slippery submitters.
The pricing structure, however, is very attractive if you want an SGC graded card in a PWCC auction.

It is CSG not SGC.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It is CSG not SGC.

Typo.

[RL]

I do not think this arrangement will last long.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Remember when anonymous grading -- that is, the notion that the graders didn't know whose cards they were grading -- was still at least an ideal? Once that's out the window, when major customers are involved, it's hard not to have some degree of cynicism about the process. So CSG signs what must be for them a major deal with PWCC of all people, and we expect CSG to grade the cards in an unbiased way? Well, OK, maybe.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

BOB

I harbor no anger or resentment towards csg? I've mentioned numerous times that i'd give them a try to grade things like t202 end panels, cut up strips from panels, and some other rare oddball things i have that noone else will grade.


You claim to be advocating for folks to give csg a fair shake yet your words sound more like someone advocating for them with an "interest" in their success?

You seem unconvinced of pwcc's "indiscretions" of the past which have been proven ad nauseum.

5. As i mentioned in an earlier post, csg charging a flat fee for grading services removes a bias and potential conflict of interest. In the past, and really still today, a tpg that charges a grading fee based on the value of a card would have a possible incentive to overlook alterations and give cards high numeric grades, thus increasing the card's value, and as a result how much they get paid for grading it. If csg charges a simple flat rate for all cards, that removes an incentive for them to willingly/knowingly give any altered card a higher numeric grade, and thus a higher than deserved value.

I think this is fantastic.


pwcc has gotten many cards past sgc/pwcc/beckett in the past...why would they not be able to do the same with csg?

I harbor no ill will towards csg...but i do towards pwcc. And to some of us...maybe not the masses...but to me there are more important things than "the cards!"

Pete,

I am not advocating for them, and definitely have no interest, ownership, or any other connection with them or anyone working for, or in any way even distantly associated with them, whatsoever. I don't even own a CSG graded card at this point, and am not actively looking to acquire a card graded by them either.

I am also not pointing at you and in any way inferring that you personally are harboring any direct anger or resentment towards CSG either.

And where do you get the impression I am unconvinced about PWCC having committed past "discretions" from? What, because when the word "PWCC" was posted in a thread I didn't immediately align myself with the resident mob mentality and start shouting from the rooftops to crucify them? As you aptly put it, evidence of their past "indiscretions" has been posted and talked about on here and other platforms as nauseum. And that is just it, I have heard and seen all the ranting and raving about it to the point it just becomes nauseating to hear it over, and over , and over again. I was just holding out a bare sliver of hope that maybe, just for once, there could be a thread discussing a not well liked party or occurrence that could go beyond just regurgitating the same old things I've already heard a thousand times or more. Would have been nice to move past the obvious and try to intelligently and positively discuss different elements, such as why CSG would make such a move given the distrust and hate towards PWCC.

Thank you at least for bringing up the one point I made about the flat fee rate hopefully being a positive sign that CSG may be trying to do things right and in a better way than has been done before. The other points I mentioned were possible reasons, circumstances or contributing factors as to why CSG may have made the decision they did, and maybe some mitigating factors as too them not falling into the role of them just being a stooge to card doctors and the like. But apparently no one else really wants to have a serious, intelligent conversation about any of that.

I am fully aware, and had previously stated it, that there are altered cards in all TPG slabs out there. And also that the card doctors are, at least for now, so damn good at what they do that they are always going to be able to sneak some altered cards past ALL the TPGs. So, forgive me for foolishly holding out hope that maybe CSG is different and can do even a slightly better job at detecting and stopping altered cards and fraud in the hobby than the other TPGs before them. At least the unbiased flat grading fees are a start. And also forgive me for trying to view the hobby in a more positive light, and waiting till there is actual evidence and results to review before deciding to put down and bash someone else in the hobby for something they haven't even done yet.