Pwcc Csg partnership

[BobC]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes, how dare I make fun of the biggest scammers and card alterers in the hobby making a deal with a grading company. This is outrageous, I tell you.

Or, just maybe, maybe there's something wrong with the people who think it's the people who don't like fraud that are the annoying ones...

I'm not saying anything good about PWCC, I'm just against people blatantly throwing CSG under the bus for accepting business through PWCC. You make it out like they (CSG) are guilty of something when they haven't done anything wrong yet, at least not as far as I know. I am not for fraud at all, but maybe instead of getting mad or upset at CSG for accepting work from consignors who decided to use PWCC, maybe you and others of a similar bent should be directing more of your anger and disgust at the people who still chose to consign through PWCC. Or is it automatically assumed that card doctors are the only people still consigning and selling through PWCC, and thus every single card being sold by PWCC has been doctored or altered somehow?

You can make all the infantile and idiotic comments you want, and personally insult me all you like. I never said or implied that people that don't like fraud are annoying, so don't go trying to put words in my mouth. But it is annoying whenever someone even mentions PWCC and all bashing starts anew. I've heard it 1,000 times already, and get it, you all hate PWCC and think they suck. Great, I'm with you, but can we talk about something else already?

I'm not necessarily a big fan of CSG partnering with PWCC either, but given the circumstances and current situation in the hobby and with TPGs, I can on some levels understand where CSG may be coming from in deciding to do business through PWCC. And I was hoping to possibly have at least a semi-intelligent and adult conversation about that aspect of it without the conversation digressing into a PWCC bashing session, and the automatic inclusion of CSG in the bashing simply because they agreed to accept grading submissions from consignors through PWCC.

That is exactly why I was purposely proactive in commenting like I did about sarcastic and joking comments being made about the partnership, I was hoping to cut off the stupid statements from being directed at CSG since they haven't really done anything wrong yet that I'm aware of. I should have known better though, there always seems to be someone that will troll what could otherwise an intelligent discussion here on the forum. I was interested to see what others thought of the reasoning I put forth as to maybe why CSG decided to go forward with this partnership anyway, and the different things that may or may not have influenced them. But noooooo! It unfortunately started turning into a PWCC is bad and stupid, so therefore if CSG decides to work with them CSG is now automatically bad and stupid too thread.

So, sorry you didn't fully understand and comprehend what I was trying to say, and somehow think I'm supporting PWCC and fraud. But that ignorance is on you. I'm not, and never have or will support fraud, and those who perpetrate it. But maybe, just maybe, if CSG starts looking at these submissions coming through PWCC, they'll pay more attention to what they're looking at and catch more of these altered and doctored card attempts than their predecessors ever did. Now wouldn't that be nice?

Despite all the hatred and anger directed at PWCC, they're still around, and it doesn't appear they'll be disappearing or going anywhere anytime soon. So suck it up and deal with it! You can bitch and moan about PWCC all you want, but why not at least give CSG a chance before bashing them in as well? This is exactly the kind of crap I feared would be coming out in this thread instead of a more positive conversation as to why CSG decided to do this. And thus, the close-minded minds appear to rule the day again.

[toledo_mudhen]

Having read this thread - I found myself stumbling onto the PWCC site for the 1st time in a couple years.

Fixed Price listings are absolutely crazy high.

Kinda made me wanna box up about 200 pounds of stuff and have them sell for me.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

Having read this thread - I found myself stumbling onto the PWCC site for the 1st time in a couple years.

Fixed Price listings are absolutely crazy high.

Kinda made me wanna box up about 200 pounds of stuff and have them sell for me.

I think the fixed prices are set by the individual sellers, not pwcc. Not positive though.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by BobC

I'm not saying anything good about PWCC, I'm just against people blatantly throwing CSG under the bus for accepting business through PWCC. You make it out like they (CSG) are guilty of something when they haven't done anything wrong yet, at least not as far as I know. I am not for fraud at all, but maybe instead of getting mad or upset at CSG for accepting work from consignors who decided to use PWCC, maybe you and others of a similar bent should be directing more of your anger and disgust at the people who still chose to consign through PWCC. Or is it automatically assumed that card doctors are the only people still consigning and selling through PWCC, and thus every single card being sold by PWCC has been doctored or altered somehow?

You can make all the infantile and idiotic comments you want, and personally insult me all you like. I never said or implied that people that don't like fraud are annoying, so don't go trying to put words in my mouth. But it is annoying whenever someone even mentions PWCC and all bashing starts anew. I've heard it 1,000 times already, and get it, you all hate PWCC and think they suck. Great, I'm with you, but can we talk about something else already?

I'm not necessarily a big fan of CSG partnering with PWCC either, but given the circumstances and current situation in the hobby and with TPGs, I can on some levels understand where CSG may be coming from in deciding to do business through PWCC. And I was hoping to possibly have at least a semi-intelligent and adult conversation about that aspect of it without the conversation digressing into a PWCC bashing session, and the automatic inclusion of CSG in the bashing simply because they agreed to accept grading submissions from consignors through PWCC.

That is exactly why I was purposely proactive in commenting like I did about sarcastic and joking comments being made about the partnership, I was hoping to cut off the stupid statements from being directed at CSG since they haven't really done anything wrong yet that I'm aware of. I should have known better though, there always seems to be someone that will troll what could otherwise an intelligent discussion here on the forum. I was interested to see what others thought of the reasoning I put forth as to maybe why CSG decided to go forward with this partnership anyway, and the different things that may or may not have influenced them. But noooooo! It unfortunately started turning into a PWCC is bad and stupid, so therefore if CSG decides to work with them CSG is now automatically bad and stupid too thread.

So, sorry you didn't fully understand and comprehend what I was trying to say, and somehow think I'm supporting PWCC and fraud. But that ignorance is on you. I'm not, and never have or will support fraud, and those who perpetrate it. But maybe, just maybe, if CSG starts looking at these submissions coming through PWCC, they'll pay more attention to what they're looking at and catch more of these altered and doctored card attempts than their predecessors ever did. Now wouldn't that be nice?

Despite all the hatred and anger directed at PWCC, they're still around, and it doesn't appear they'll be disappearing or going anywhere anytime soon. So suck it up and deal with it! You can bitch and moan about PWCC all you want, but why not at least give CSG a chance before bashing them in as well? This is exactly the kind of crap I feared would be coming out in this thread instead of a more positive conversation as to why CSG decided to do this. And thus, the close-minded minds appear to rule the day again.

What's infantile is your 6 paragraph screed of anger and detest over a single line sarcastic remark about a grading company hopping into bed with the fraudsters best known for sneaking frauds past grading companies. All you want to do is bitch about people who think that this is a bad idea? No shit, not many people will think CSG choosing to publicly align with the graded card fraudsters is positive. Why would they? Good luck with that hot take. Take some of your own advice...

[BobC]

Originally Posted by G1911

What's infantile is your 6 paragraph screed of anger and detest over a single line sarcastic remark about a grading company hopping into bed with the fraudsters best known for sneaking frauds past grading companies. All you want to do is bitch about people who think that this is a bad idea? No shit, not many people will think CSG choosing to publicly align with the graded card fraudsters is positive. Why would they? Good luck with that hot take. Take some of your own advice...

I made earlier comments to hopefully dispel and not have additional sarcastic remarks and jokes take over the thread so as to try and steer the discussion towards something more positive and productive, like reasoning behind CSG doing what on the surface appears to be a really bad decision. And yet almost immediately, here comes someone with a juvenile sarcastic comment just out of spite. There isn't anything more juvenile than that. Except maybe if you try to respond back to that person, and intentionally dumb down your comments so it is more on their level that they hopefully will understand, and they instead take that as you now being the juvenile because you're trying to communicate with them on a level they will comprehend. That is like being juvenile squared. Wow!

And as for being tedious in my rantings, you obviously find them to be that because you're from the close-minded and "I'm right and you're wrong!" school of thought. I really didn't want to hear the bitching and moaning about PWCC, so your immediate response is to come right back and make your sarcastic comment and shove it my face as a more or less "I'm going to do want I want, and you can't tell me what to do!" kind of statement. I wasn't trying to tell you what to do, just hoping the more adult side and thinking of people would prevail. My bad for continuing to hold out hope that might actually happen one day.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by BobC

I made earlier comments to hopefully dispel and not have additional sarcastic remarks and jokes take over the thread so as to try and steer the discussion towards something more positive and productive, like reasoning behind CSG doing what on the surface appears to be a really bad decision. And yet almost immediately, here comes someone with a juvenile sarcastic comment just out of spite. There isn't anything more juvenile than that. Except maybe if you try to respond back to that person, and intentionally dumb down your comments so it is more on their level that they hopefully will understand, and they instead take that as you now being the juvenile because you're trying to communicate with them on a level they will comprehend. That is like being juvenile squared. Wow!

And as for being tedious in my rantings, you obviously find them to be that because you're from the close-minded and "I'm right and you're wrong!" school of thought. I really didn't want to hear the bitching and moaning about PWCC, so your immediate response is to come right back and make your sarcastic comment and shove it my face as a more or less "I'm going to do want I want, and you can't tell me what to do!" kind of statement. I wasn't trying to tell you what to do, just hoping the more adult side and thinking of people would prevail. My bad for continuing to hold out hope that might actually happen one day.

Yes, the mature thing is to insist everything’s peachy when the graders hop in bed with the guys primarily known for grading fraud. It is close minded to question this, or to think it likely anything negative will result. Disagreeing with your idea that maybe it’s all dandy and ethical is closed minded. Thankfully, you’ve shown me what maturity looks like with your wisened repetitive personal insults that go on for paragraphs and paragraphs without really saying anything different, because you can’t actually defend why this is a good thing. I’ve sure learned a lot today from your drivel.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes, the mature thing is to insist everything’s peachy when the graders hop in bed with the guys primarily known for grading fraud. It is close minded to question this, or to think it likely anything negative will result. Disagreeing with your idea that maybe it’s all dandy and ethical is closed minded. Thankfully, you’ve shown me what maturity looks like with your wisened repetitive personal insults that go on for paragraphs and paragraphs without really saying anything different, because you can’t actually defend why this is a good thing. I’ve sure learned a lot today from your drivel.

For me, I just don’t understand why the claims agains pwcc gain more traction than those against others. Maybe the volume is higher and it’s justified I guess. Just seems like there’s a pick and choose that might not be justified.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

For me, I just don’t understand why the claims agains pwcc gain more traction than those against others. Maybe the volume is higher and it’s justified I guess. Just seems like there’s a pick and choose that might not be justified.

You joined in 2021. Are you familiar with the whole history of PWCC that we've talked about here for the last 15 years?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Carter08

For me, I just don’t understand why the claims agains pwcc gain more traction than those against others. Maybe the volume is higher and it’s justified I guess. Just seems like there’s a pick and choose that might not be justified.

I doubt there's a clean auction house in the bunch. I haven't seen most of them trimming thousands of cards though. PWCC has been documented altering more cards than probably anyone in hobby history. Auction houses do shady things if they think they can get away with it, like pretty much every business. PWCC is almost openly criminal and has committed stunning amounts of open fraud, each new one seeming to do little as people continue to buy and sell with them.

A light joke about PWCC does not mean that everyone or anyone else is clean. I'd love to see where I have picked and chosen.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I doubt there's a clean auction house in the bunch. I haven't seen most of them trimming thousands of cards though. PWCC has been documented altering more cards than probably anyone in hobby history. Auction houses do shady things if they think they can get away with it, like pretty much every business. PWCC is almost openly criminal and has committed stunning amounts of open fraud, each new one seeming to do little as people continue to buy and sell with them.

A light joke about PWCC does not mean that everyone or anyone else is clean. I'd love to see where I have picked and chosen.

I agree this is not an exemplary hobby and many players have had issues, but from my decades of perspective, and personal dealings over the years since he was literally just a kid selling cards for Gary, Brent is in a class by himself.

[Snowman]

I thought I was done with CSG 6 months ago. But their recent changes to their flip and grading scale show humility and that they are listening to the customers. Their continued partnerships with major players in the hobby show initiative and drive. Their bandwidth to turn around the volume of cards that are heading their way via eBay on top of the submissions they receive is pretty impressive given how new they are. Comparing their ability to hire and train graders to that of their competitors leaves me scratching my head as they seem to be nearly an order of magnitude more efficient in this process. I'm becoming increasingly more convinced that CSG is going to jump into the #2 spot in the not too distant future. The vintage market will be more hesitant to adopt them, at least at first, but they will definitely become major players with modern cards very soon IMO.

I have about 150 cards that I previously had no intention of grading that I'll be sending off to CSG tomorrow. I really, really love their new slabs. Well-centered PSA 9s are about to get the middle finger from CSG, just watch. Soon, people will be cracking PSA 9s and sending them off to CSG, hoping for that 9.5 (or better).

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by BobC

I made earlier comments to hopefully dispel and not have additional sarcastic remarks and jokes take over the thread so as to try and steer the discussion towards something more positive and productive, like reasoning behind CSG doing what on the surface appears to be a really bad decision.

I'm not sure there's a whole lot of mystery as to CSG's reasoning. They did the math and decided that partnering with PWCC would generate enough revenue and market share gain to offset any hit their rep might take by laying down with filth like PWCC. What other reasoning could there be?

But, of course a topic like the CSG/PWCC partnership is going to generate a lot of negative comments toward both parties. "But CSG hasn't done anything wrong - yet!" isn't a defense here. The "anything wrong" is partnering with PWCC in the first place. If you partner up with an enterprise that is a known criminal enterprise, you're no longer an innocent party who has done nothing wrong. People pointing this out - even sarcastically- are not misdirecting the conversation. They're taking it to a logical destination. How can you possibly discuss a PWCC/CSG partnership in any meaningful way and NOT bring up PWCC's criminal activities? You can't, IMHO.

[rjackson44]

I just bought 71 topps reggie jackson🤭

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I'm not sure there's a whole lot of mystery as to CSG's reasoning. They did the math and decided that partnering with PWCC would generate enough revenue and market share gain to offset any hit their rep might take by laying down with filth like PWCC. What other reasoning could there be?

But, of course a topic like the CSG/PWCC partnership is going to generate a lot of negative comments toward both parties. "But CSG hasn't done anything wrong - yet!" isn't a defense here. The "anything wrong" is partnering with PWCC in the first place. If you partner up with an enterprise that is a known criminal enterprise, you're no longer an innocent party who has done nothing wrong. People pointing this out - even sarcastically- are not misdirecting the conversation. They're taking it to a logical destination. How can you possibly discuss a PWCC/CSG partnership in any meaningful way and NOT bring up PWCC's criminal activities? You can't, IMHO.

Has it been publicly announced anywhere by any of the other big three TPGs (PSA, SGC, & Beckett) and emphatically stated that they will no longer accept ANY card submissions from or through PWCC? If not, and any of them now accepts (or previously accepted) a grading submission from or through PWCC, you should all be saying they too are just as guilty as PWCC because they chose to do business with them, correct?

And by extension then, the bank they use is invariably aiding in their criminal activity, and should be considered an accessory to their crimes. And that goes for the landlord who leases them space, the cleaning company they may hire to vacuum and dust their offices, the store that sells them office supplies, heck, even the US postal service is guilty for continuing to deliver them mail that aids and abets their criminal operations. And of course, every single employee on PWCC's payroll is also equally as guilty of their crimes and should also end up behind bars. And you can go on and on to name every single person and enterprise that does anything that helps to keep PWCC's business operating, as an accessory to their crimes then. At least that is according to the logic being put forth for people on Net54 apparently.

"If you partner up with an enterprise that is a known criminal enterprise, you're no longer an innocent party who has done nothing wrong."

So based on what you seem to be implying for yourself and many other people here on Net54 with those words, is that when the FBI finally completes their investigation of PWCC and goes forward with criminal prosecution, we should expect an enormous number of people to end up going to jail, including all the people working with other businesses that supported and helped to maintain PWCC's criminal operations by offering and providing them their goods and services.

""But (enter name of any person or business doing anything with or for PWCC) hasn't done anything wrong - yet!" isn't a defense here. The "anything wrong" is partnering with PWCC in the first place.".

Those are your words, incorporating a quote from me, not mine. Maybe you can explain that to the single Mom with two little kids at home as she gets hauled off to jail because she needed the job and money from being a receptionist and just answering the phones at PWCC. Of course, I'm making up the single Mom being their receptionist part (even though it actually could be the case) to make a point and add a little dramatic effect. As you alluded to, she has no defense and should be considered guilty, just like CSG, right? So, I guess such a hypothetical figure as this single Mom could/would/should also be an eligible target for sarcastic comments from Net54's peanut gallery then as well. And therefore, I would be remiss and completely in the wrong for calling out any of those parties hurling sarcastic comments at the obviously guilty single Mom as being juvenile a-holes for doing so!

Chris, you're a good guy, and we usually see eye to eye on things. I trust you can see my logic and reasoning behind what I'm saying. And though you put forth the most obvious reasons for CSG doing this (money and market share), I was hoping to get into a little deeper discussion of specific points that may have swayed CSG to make the decision to go forward. Along with the possibility that there may actually be some good coming from this arrangement, such as a flat rate grading fee finally being seen in the hobby. Forgive my foolishness for actually thinking that such an adult conversation could take place on this forum in regards to such a testy and controversial subject, without it also releasing the juvenile trolls that just love to bark and bite at one's ankles.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by BobC

Has it been publicly announced anywhere by any of the other big three TPGs (PSA, SGC, & Beckett) and emphatically stated that they will no longer accept ANY card submissions from or through PWCC? If not, and any of them now accepts (or previously accepted) a grading submission from or through PWCC, you should all be saying they too are just as guilty as PWCC because they chose to do business with them, correct?

This is kind of irrelevant in a discussion of CSG and PWCC but, yes, people should be saying that about the other TPGs as well.

Originally Posted by BobC

And by extension then, the bank they use is invariably aiding in their criminal activity, and should be considered an accessory to their crimes. And that goes for the landlord who leases them space, the cleaning company they may hire to vacuum and dust their offices, the store that sells them office supplies, heck, even the US postal service is guilty for continuing to deliver them mail that aids and abets their criminal operations.

This, of course, is nonsense.

There is a difference between a cleaning company, who is likely unaware of the criminal activities of PWCC and a grading company who is absolutely aware of them.

Originally Posted by BobC

"If you partner up with an enterprise that is a known criminal enterprise, you're no longer an innocent party who has done nothing wrong."

So based on what you seem to be implying for yourself and many other people here on Net54 with those words, is that when the FBI finally completes their investigation of PWCC and goes forward with criminal prosecution, we should expect an enormous number of people to end up going to jail, including all the people working with other businesses that supported and helped to maintain PWCC's criminal operations by offering and providing them their goods and services.

See above.

Originally Posted by BobC

Those are your words, incorporating a quote from me, not mine. Maybe you can explain that to the single Mom with two little kids at home as she gets hauled off to jail because she needed the job and money from being a receptionist and just answering the phones at PWCC.

You're being silly, as I'm sure you know. There is quite obviously a difference between working for PWCC not knowing their activities and working with them when you're fully aware of them AND you're assisting in those activities by grading cards.

Originally Posted by BobC

Chris, you're a good guy

Your judgment is suspect.

Also, thanks

Originally Posted by BobC

I trust you can see my logic and reasoning behind what I'm saying. And though you put forth the most obvious reasons for CSG doing this (money and market share), I was hoping to get into a little deeper discussion of specific points that may have swayed CSG to make the decision to go forward. Along with the possibility that there may actually be some good coming from this arrangement, such as a flat rate grading fee finally being seen in the hobby. Forgive my foolishness for actually thinking that such an adult conversation could take place on this forum in regards to such a testy and controversial subject, without it also releasing the juvenile trolls that just love to bark and bite at one's ankles.

It's a little disingenuous to complain about "juvenile trolls" and sarcastic replies when you yourself post obviously non-serious replies about cleaning people being criminals.

CSG could have implemented the flat rate grading outside of a relationship with PWCC. This certainly seems like a positive step for the grading industry. While I certainly understand why companies haven't done it before (besides the obvious increased revenue, there are greater risks and possible costs associated with grading more expensive cards), the inherent conflict of interest has always bothered me. But correcting that conflict didn't necessitate getting into business with PWCC. And getting into business with PWCC kinda offsets any positive things that CSG might be doing.

[perezfan]

Flat rate grading and ease of submission = good moves

Partnership with PWCC = bad move

I can see why they did it, as it will result in many more graded cards residing in CSG slabs (instigating what they hope will be increased awareness and ultimately greater market acceptance).

They obviously picked an awful company to partner with in terms of ethics. But if the last 3 years had revealed anything, it’s that the vast majority of collectors don’t know about and/or care about the alteration scandal.

So this move will likely help with CSG’s objective to grow market share. Also note that well over 90% of the proven altered cards sold by PWCC resided in PSA Holders. Seems like that fact did nothing at all to dissuade collectors from using or buying PSA product. In that regard, I can understand why Bob calls out hypocrisy in many of the subsequent posts.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Tabe

This is kind of irrelevant in a discussion of CSG and PWCC but, yes, people should be saying that about the other TPGs as well.


This, of course, is nonsense.

There is a difference between a cleaning company, who is likely unaware of the criminal activities of PWCC and a grading company who is absolutely aware of them.


See above.


You're being silly, as I'm sure you know. There is quite obviously a difference between working for PWCC not knowing their activities and working with them when you're fully aware of them AND you're assisting in those activities by grading cards.


Your judgment is suspect.

Also, thanks


It's a little disingenuous to complain about "juvenile trolls" and sarcastic replies when you yourself post obviously non-serious replies about cleaning people being criminals.

CSG could have implemented the flat rate grading outside of a relationship with PWCC. This certainly seems like a positive step for the grading industry. While I certainly understand why companies haven't done it before (besides the obvious increased revenue, there are greater risks and possible costs associated with grading more expensive cards), the inherent conflict of interest has always bothered me. But correcting that conflict didn't necessitate getting into business with PWCC. And getting into business with PWCC kinda offsets any positive things that CSG might be doing.

Chris,

I'm just responding to what others have said on here, who were quite emphatic about ANYONE working for or with someone who is a known criminal (to their thinking) also being guilty for associating and enabling the criminals to do and get away with what they do. One idea posed was regarding a plumber fixing toilets. So, when I post something intentionally idiotic in response about a criminal's bank or their cleaning company also being guilty by association then, it is not being juvenile, just expanding on a similar type of example they made, to draw out the original parties saying everyone's guilty and hopefully make them realize they over spoke and were probably wrong in what they originally said. And based on past experience, many parties usually don't directly respond so they have to admit their error or ignorance of the facts or situation, or they try to respond in some way to blow it off or twist your words so they can get out of it.

And then as a result, invariably a different group will see something you posted in response to drawing out one party, and take you to task about what you're asking that was really directed at someone else. For example, instead of saying something about or to me for asking about a criminal's bank or cleaning company, why isn't that other party instead going back to the original party accusing a plumber of now being guilty, and more appropriately saying something to/about them? I was merely calling the originally poster out for saying the plumber is guilty, to see if in fact they will admit they may not always be right given differing facts and circumstances. But as I already said, invariably they usually don't seem to directly respond, or deflect you in some way to not ever admit they could have been wrong. Nor willingly admit they may just be drawing the line in different places at differing times so as to always support their own pre-conceived notions and narrative, and rarely it seems be opened-minded enough to listen to new information, evidence, and points of view.

And then of course, when I type a long response out to try and fully address all the points and questions directed at me, and to be as clear and thorough in such responses as possible so my words can't be twisted and used against me, an entirely different group jumps in to comment about my long posts.

It doesn't seem to matter what one says on here, there invariably seems to be some group that will jump in and criticize you regardless of what you say. And in trying to respond and defend yourself from one group, don't be surprised if you then get trolled for an entirely different set of reasons by others.

As for the "juvenile trolls" comment, Chris please tell me what you're supposed to say and do then when you specifically post and more or less ask for others to refrain from making more sarcastic and joking comments so the thread can hopefully go in a serious and civil direction. And then the very next post is some supposed adult doing just what you'd asked them to not do. The total lack of understanding and civility, and disrespect directed towards a fellow board member in such a situation is uncalled for. And don't just say ignore them, because by not at least calling them out for what they've done, you let them think what they are doing is acceptable and proper, and they continue doing it with everyone else as well. I'm all for sarcasm and jokes as much as the next person, in the right context, situation, and place. And none those are right after you've been asked not to make such remarks and comments. That smacks of very sophomoric and juvenile thinking and actions to me. And even more so juvenile is that when you do call such a party out for it, their defense is something like, so what, I only did it once. And then they turn around and call you juvenile for having the gall to point out to them what they did. Wow!

And I still think you are a great guy and asset to the forum.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I'm not sure there's a whole lot of mystery as to CSG's reasoning. They did the math and decided that partnering with PWCC would generate enough revenue and market share gain to offset any hit their rep might take by laying down with filth like PWCC. What other reasoning could there be?

But, of course a topic like the CSG/PWCC partnership is going to generate a lot of negative comments toward both parties. "But CSG hasn't done anything wrong - yet!" isn't a defense here. The "anything wrong" is partnering with PWCC in the first place. If you partner up with an enterprise that is a known criminal enterprise, you're no longer an innocent party who has done nothing wrong. People pointing this out - even sarcastically- are not misdirecting the conversation. They're taking it to a logical destination. How can you possibly discuss a PWCC/CSG partnership in any meaningful way and NOT bring up PWCC's criminal activities? You can't, IMHO.

You guys keep talking about PWCC as if any of these allegations have been proven. You might be convinced, but the prosecutors asks FBI clearly were not. CSG probably couldn't care less about hobby conspiracy theories.

PWCC has been charged with zero crimes. PWCC is a big player in this market. That's probably all CSG cares about. I wouldn't even be surprised if they knew absolutely nothing about all the PWCC conspiracy theories in fact. That stuff is pretty deep in the shadows of this hobby.

[G1911]

It’s one of the most talked about things in the hobby. It’s not in the shadows…

A person who is guilty of wrongdoing and a person who has been convicted of a crime are different things. That PWCC has not been charged or convicted does not mean the mountains of evidence are untrue.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

It’s one of the most talked about things in the hobby. It’s not in the shadows…

A person who is guilty of wrongdoing and a person who has been convicted of a crime are different things. That PWCC has not been charged or convicted does not mean the mountains of evidence are untrue.

An example of the "burden of proof" logical fallacy, eh?

You, me, and countless others know damn well what the truth is. It doesn't matter who denies it, and it's a waste of time arguing with them.

[Snowman]

I was unaware of the "PWCC has been banned from PSA" conspiracy theory. Regardless, it's false. I know for a fact that PWCC is still submitting cards to PSA. They offered to send in one of the cards in my vault for a grade review 3 days ago (prompted by me, not them).