Vintage GU Bats - Undervalued?

[glchen]

I think the issue with GU bats (and jerseys) is that folks aren't really ever sure that the player really did use that bat unless it is photo matched to an actual game, which barely any of them are. If they are not, then you are just trusting some authenticator which are just checking bat records to see if that player used that weight/length, etc, so who knows if some other player used that player's bat in reality. IMHO, that's what is bringing down prices.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think the issue with GU bats (and jerseys) is that folks aren't really ever sure that the player really did use that bat unless it is photo matched to an actual game, which barely any of them are. If they are not, then you are just trusting some authenticator which are just checking bat records to see if that player used that weight/length, etc, so who knows if some other player used that player's bat in reality. IMHO, that's what is bringing down prices.

You are probably correct: people don't want to be duped about player use. Nonetheless, I think that a player's pro model bats that match order records are very, very collectible and rare. Rarer than almost any card issues. Because I still need 3 or 4 bats that I need before I can consider my collection complete, I will not wish for a price spike.

[71buc]

I think another issue is the size of bats. I have been collecting for many years and only had two bats as I had little display space. Last summer I included both of them as part of a trade for a Clemente bat. Ironically acquiring the Clemente actually increased my desire to build a 1971 Pirate bat run. The price of the remaining players is far less formidable. I figured why not? Well now I am only 7 of 17 bats in toward my goal and I’m already trying to make space for them.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think the issue with GU bats (and jerseys) is that folks aren't really ever sure that the player really did use that bat unless it is photo matched to an actual game, which barely any of them are. If they are not, then you are just trusting some authenticator which are just checking bat records to see if that player used that weight/length, etc, so who knows if some other player used that player's bat in reality. IMHO, that's what is bringing down prices.

That "not being sure" and "trusting some authenticator" doesn't seem to hurt the autograph market.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think the issue with GU bats (and jerseys) is that folks aren't really ever sure that the player really did use that bat unless it is photo matched to an actual game, which barely any of them are. If they are not, then you are just trusting some authenticator which are just checking bat records to see if that player used that weight/length, etc, so who knows if some other player used that player's bat in reality. IMHO, that's what is bringing down prices.

True with bats. I've had a few Twin players tell me they used other guys bats, and I owned a couple examples of clear game use (distinctive, identifiable numbers written on knobs) by players other than the names burned on the barrel.

I know nothing about post 1971 jerseys, when the knit era began, and I suspect there could be many shirts since then that were made to pro specs but not GU.

Flannels are a whole different story. When I have a jersey with appropriate use and even fading, correct and complete tagging which often includes: manufacturer tag, wash instructions tag, size tag, set tag, and stitching that often includes players' name, set number, uniform number, I'm pretty confident.

Then when an expert with a table lamp and black light (like Dave Grob - the best in the business) evaluates and says the stitching is correct, the numbers and logos are original and were not replaced, and the shirt matches known exemplars in every respect, I have certainty.

When numbers or logos are replaced on a flannel jersey, for example a number change, there will be evidence of sun fading, or stitch lines, or uneven puckering of the numbers/logos. The thread might be different, or stitching. In short, there are a couple dozen things that have to be exactly right for a jersey to pass such inspection.

Shirts get reused and sent to the minors for later use, after their primary use in the big leagues is complete, but if a shirt is made for a specific player during a specific year, and he was with the club (not traded before the season began) then it's almost certain the shirt was used by him. His number on it, his name possibly on it, made to his size..... It's not at all similar to a guy borrowing another players bat, liking it, and asking to keep it.

And yes, flannel jerseys are way undervalued. Bats too, especially vintage.

[MVSNYC]

For the sake of this conversation, what year (or decade) are we saying Vintage starts?

[gehrig]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

For the sake of this conversation, what year (or decade) are we saying Vintage starts?

I was thinking 1910’s to 1960’s

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Mark17

True with bats. I've had a few Twin players tell me they used other guys bats, and I owned a couple examples of clear game use (distinctive, identifiable numbers written on knobs) by players other than the names burned on the barrel.

I know nothing about post 1971 jerseys, when the knit era began, and I suspect there could be many shirts since then that were made to pro specs but not GU.

Flannels are a whole different story. When I have a jersey with appropriate use and even fading, correct and complete tagging which often includes: manufacturer tag, wash instructions tag, size tag, set tag, and stitching that often includes players' name, set number, uniform number, I'm pretty confident.

Then when an expert with a table lamp and black light (like Dave Grob - the best in the business) evaluates and says the stitching is correct, the numbers and logos are original and were not replaced, and the shirt matches known exemplars in every respect, I have certainty.

When numbers or logos are replaced on a flannel jersey, for example a number change, there will be evidence of sun fading, or stitch lines, or uneven puckering of the numbers/logos. The thread might be different, or stitching. In short, there are a couple dozen things that have to be exactly right for a jersey to pass such inspection.

Shirts get reused and sent to the minors for later use, after their primary use in the big leagues is complete, but if a shirt is made for a specific player during a specific year, and he was with the club (not traded before the season began) then it's almost certain the shirt was used by him. His number on it, his name possibly on it, made to his size..... It's not at all similar to a guy borrowing another players bat, liking it, and asking to keep it.

And yes, flannel jerseys are way undervalued. Bats too, especially vintage.

+1 (on all counts)

[Bpm0014]

As a collector of t206 player game used bats, sometimes I can’t believe how cheap I have found some. I think there is a ton of room for growth in the game used bat market. With a game used bat, it kind of actually takes you back to that era. The player held it. The pitchers he faced. The other dead ball hall of farmers that may have grabbed the bat. The stadiums it’s been in. It’s a really really cool collectible if you think about it!

[Bpm0014]

Every vintage game used bat thread needs a picture!

[sicollector1954]

Now I know where they all went! LOL.

Seriously, I recently had a case where a game used bat was being given a number grade and letter. I was told in a text it would be a 9.5. Then an hour later, I received a second text saying that after an in person examination of the restoration work that was done, it would now be a 9. Makes you wonder if someone took a look at all of the 9.5 outs their of this particular player and decided that maybe there are too many and we better lesson the grade a little. Or that in the restoration work, some of the use disappeared somehow. A lot of power for only a couple of people whom deal with certification letters. Just saying.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by sicollector1954

Now I know where they all went! LOL.

Seriously, I recently had a case where a game used bat was being given a number grade and letter. I was told in a text it would be a 9.5. Then an hour later, I received a second text saying that after an in person examination of the restoration work that was done, it would now be a 9. Makes you wonder if someone took a look at all of the 9.5 outs their of this particular player and decided that maybe there are too many and we better lesson the grade a little. Or that in the restoration work, some of the use disappeared somehow. A lot of power for only a couple of people whom deal with certification letters. Just saying.

The game use of course stayed constant - the repair work must've not been first rate.

My pet peeve regarding bat grading is that they use one grade to evaluate 2 distinctly different things - use by the player the bat was made for, and condition.

I once had a 1964 Frank Robinson bat that was clearly ordered by and used by him. It matched factory orders specifically to that year, it was not the model number used for pro stock, it had his uniform number on the knob written in his usual style, I believe the handle was scored, and so on. The PSA/DNA letter made it clear it was used by Frank.

But...... there were a lot of tiny abrasions and scratches on it, which Taube attributed to kids playing with it after it was cracked and discarded by Frank. Because of these imperfections, it was graded GU 6.5.

What it should've been graded was something like:

Authenticity: GU 10
Condition: GU 5

Personally, I'd rather have a bat with flaws that was definitely used by the player, rather than a nice looking bat with uncertainty as to who used it.

[bnorth]

Here are about half of my bats. Most are from 1984-2000. I Have only ever owned one vintage(early 1900s) bat and traded it to a fellow member.

In the small area I collect the prices have increased easily 50% over the last 2 years.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

Every vintage game used bat thread needs a picture!

That Lee Harvey Oswald photo is a little out of place!!

[Bpm0014]

Hahaha. True that. It’s a Type I. I collect Type I photos. I just haven’t found a place for it yet.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think the issue with GU bats (and jerseys) is that folks aren't really ever sure that the player really did use that bat unless it is photo matched to an actual game, which barely any of them are. If they are not, then you are just trusting some authenticator which are just checking bat records to see if that player used that weight/length, etc, so who knows if some other player used that player's bat in reality. IMHO, that's what is bringing down prices.

You’re correct. For vintage bats, photo matching is difficult because there aren’t many images out there, and if you do find some, they’re black and white, grainy, and not close-up.

There is an awesome 1928 Ty Cobb Game Used Bat currently in Goldin Auctions, with really clear photo match images. Very rare to find images like that from the 20’s.

From my own experience, I have been burned on game used bats with LOA’s from the experts, and including from the player, only to find out after doing some research, the bat wasn’t authentic. It happens more often than many want to believe. I don’t want to have something in my collection to where when I’m looking at it, and I’m thinking to myself, “I wonder if he really used it?” I think this is where it does hold collectors back a bit from paying the big $$$.

Photo matching does make a huge difference. There was an Alex Rodriguez 2007 Game Used Glove that sold in Infinite Auctions for $3,932.50; sold again in Golding Auctions for $4,287.50; then sold again in Goldin Auctions for $17,220, but this time the glove was photo matched.

I believe most game used collectors think the same way.

[bigfanNY]

I have a few 500 HR club bats of Modern players. And even with grading and player letters I too learned some hard lessons along the way. But I learned from my mistakes. Mlb authentication and photo matching are always mean more to me than letters and grades. I have a mlb and photo matched Trout bat that got a grade of 9.5? The half point dose not bother me too much..lol.
I was tempted on a few 1930's bats a number of years ago passed then read about a guy in a barn with a lathe turning vintage Bats including at least one Ruth that got a letter and a grade. Maybe one day I will pull the trigger on a Paul Waner or A Duckey Medwick but Game used has always felt to me like a real battle between collectors and Fraudsters. With the latter winning to often.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Maybe one day I will pull the trigger on a Paul Waner or A Duckey Medwick but Game used has always felt to me like a real battle between collectors and Fraudsters. With the latter winning to often.

It is much easier to forge a card than a vintage bat, and almost infinitely easier to forge an autograph.

Coins, stamps, antiques of all kinds, artwork - pretty much every collectible - can be, and sometimes is, forged. It's all relative, but vintage GU seems a lot safer than some other things.

[bigfanNY]

Originally Posted by Mark17

It is much easier to forge a card than a vintage bat, and almost infinitely easier to forge an autograph.

Coins, stamps, antiques of all kinds, artwork - pretty much every collectible - can be, and sometimes is, forged. It's all relative, but vintage GU seems a lot safer than some other things.

Mark I agree that many other collectibles such as Autographs are easier to stright up forge. Game used items from Star players and Hall of Famers tend to have higher price tags than most memorabilia. And subtle differences can mean significant price swings.
I will give the example of the third Bat got for my collection. A Johnny Bench bat purchased from a man who had a table full of items from Steve Carlton Pete Rose etc. He had a relationship with these players and marketed their game used and personal items.
First I bought a Few Pete Rose Ties that my Dad just got a big kick out of. He wore them often to social events. So a few shows later he sees this same man and buys a Pete Rose warm up suit that he had worn for a Mizuno ad. Then later a Johnny Bench bat. At a show the next month he has Bench sign the Bat. When Bench signs it he asks my Dad how he got it. He tells story and says Johnny says yep thats one of mine. This is about 1979-1981 my Dad gives it to me the next Christmas because he knows I am a big fan love you Dad (he passed in 2017)
Forward to 2013 I have purchased an Arod bat signed as Game used but I find out he only uses this model for batting practice. So I ask knowledgeable bat guy about Bench bat I show him pictures. He looks it up and says it is a bat Bench ordered not for game use but to give away to friends or at his car dealership etc. So 2 of the first 5 bats I bought tought me lessons. Neither that expensive but the second stung. Never told Dad about the Bench.
So I keep learning and become even more cautious. Because I know small differences mean alot and sources you want to trust you can't. Photo Matching, MLB certs, PSA 9's, heavy game use especially if it reinforces player characteristics these things I trust. And I know that certainty has a price but it is worh it to me.

[Mark]

Thanks, Jonathan. You have lots experience acquiring very sought after bats, and your warnings are well-taken. In my opinion, it makes great sense for there to be a significant premium for bats that can be proved to be game used by the player in question. Otherwise, I think, we should understand ourselves to be acquiring pro model bats. And when it comes to players from 100+ years ago, I think it's next to impossible to show that a given bat is gamed used by the player---other than to point to side writing and draw the obvious inference. I'm pleased just to get a block letter bat of a player from long ago because I can usually surmise that if he ordered the bat, then he probably at least hit some BP with it.

[SyrNy1960]

Here is great example of how careful you need to be, even when it comes to modern day game used memorabilia. Not everything is what you think it is. As you all know, when people can make money off of cards and memorabilia, they will lie and fake things in order to make the big $$$.

These two bats are actually Alex Rodriguez BP used bats (you can see the tape lines on the bats). He did not use these bats in official games. These bats were signed (with no inscription) and sold by Arod Authenticated (his own authentication service back then) as 1997 Game Used Bats. The bats were later sent to MVP (who also sold Arod memorabilia), and the inscriptions were added. However, as you can see, now the bats are inscribed as 1998 Game Used. Ouch!

Being that I am a one-player game used collector, I have had many years to research, watch and learn a lot about him and his game used memorabilia. I consider myself very knowledgeable when it comes to Arod Game Used memorabilia.

My best advice is when it comes to game used memorabilia, do your research and proceed with caution.

[tacprc]

Fyi I am pretty sure that the dealer was Whitie Willenborg. His business was called Cincinnati Memorabilia Co.

[bigfanNY]

For context you are referring to dealer who sold memorabilia primarily from Pete Rose and Steve Carlton and other Reds and Phillies players. Yes Whitey was his name. This is one of the Pete Rose Ties and the Bench Bat that was purchased from him.
Also as a follow up I purchased a Bill White bat that I am very happy with. It has helped me ease my way back with G/U bats and I have been an active bidder in some bats from the 20's and 30's. When I finally win one I will post.