WW3 Please SAY NO!

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by jgannon

Joe! I provided the link about Gorbachev, because I wanted to acknowledge that Gorbachev does tell the story differently. But maybe there is something in the documents which might support what Gorbachev does say about NATO expansion violating the spirit of the agreement. You yourself say you have not looked through all of the documents. Maybe there is something in there that you didn't read that might temper your viewpoint.

Shemp, you may acknowledge what Gorbachev said about a NATO promise, but do you believe him? Based on the rest of your reply, the answer is, "No." If you did, you wouldn't have linked to Margolis' article where he pretty much only talks about the Russians being LIED to.

As for the highlighted portion, if there is something in there about this "spirit," find it. How many times do I have to tell you that you are the one making the claim, you are the one who needs to provide evidence that your claim is valid. Do you really expect me to accept your claim because there MIGHT be something in the documents to support you? REALLY??

Lastly, in regards to this "spirit" that was "violated," how exactly would that be documented? If NATO expansion was never brought up by any country on either side, as Gorbachev says, what "spirit" are you talking about?

Shemp, I really don't get it. For some reason, you're still fishing for that angle so you can say Putin is justified in attacking Ukraine because of US lies or phantom "spirits" about NATO expansion.

Originally Posted by jgannon

Far from being unpatriotic, honest critique of one's country is one of the highest forms of patriotism, because if you love your country, you want to be honest with it and about it so it can be the best country it can be. And if it is a great country, one should also be able to freely discuss things without fear of censorship or intolerance. It's a shame that some people here have equated free speech and dissent from the mainstream line with lack of patriotism.

Get used to it Shemp. There are those who say, "Love it or leave it." I don't know how many times I've heard that. There is one political party in this country that seems to think they own patriotism and you're either with them or against them. If you don't wrap yourself up in the American flag or wear a flag pin, you're unpatriotic. If they are in the White House, you don't dare criticize the government because to do so is unpatriotic. In fact, you could probably storm the Capitol to prevent a fair election from being certified and you would probably be called a patriot by them ... if it is done to keep them in the White House of course.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

There is one political party in this country that seems to think they own patriotism and you're either with them or against them. If you don't wrap yourself up in the American flag or wear a flag pin, you're unpatriotic. If they are in the White House, you don't dare criticize the government because to do so is unpatriotic. In fact, you could probably storm the Capitol to prevent a fair election from being certified and you would probably be called a patriot by them ... if it is done to keep them in the White House of course.

WaterCooler Talk - Off Topics
General chat and off topic stuff. Please no politics or religion.

[gawaintheknight]

Two things. One is that we should maybe think about why, in spite of the risks of provoking Putin that many people are highlighting, Eastern European countries wanted to join NATO anyway. I assume they knew the risks very well, but thought it was still safer than not joining. If NATO doesn't let them join, it sends a message to Putin: we don't care about these countries and won't protect them. That's what he thought was the case with Ukraine, and we can see how that's working out.

Two, the "encircled by NATO" thing is not all that's going on. Putin has a set of ideological beliefs that are driving his actions as well.

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/0...ssian-fascism/

Ted

[sbfinley]

Since the bulk of the discussion began on the question of how much value should be placed on the reporting of major journalism outlets (or in Layman’s term: “sheep blindly trust MSM”). I think it is particularly noteworthy that today the New York Times pulled all of its foreign correspondents out of Russia. It has held a continual presence there since 1921 - through the rise of bolshevism, the power grab of Stalin, through the Second World War and the sieges that ground the Nazi war machine to a halt, through the Cold War, until today. A paper with more than 130 Pulitzer Prizes and multiple Peabody awards, that defended itself in multiple Supreme Court cases that lay the basis for freedom of speech and freedom of the press, and that on at least two occasions has been publicly threatened by the sitting President of the United States of America lowered their presence in Russia to zero. They did it to protect their correspondents from Russia’s new law criminalizing any news the state disagrees with.

The point of news isn’t affirmation of your beliefs, the point is to provide facts that can help you make educated and informed decisions.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...eedom.amp.html

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

The point of news isn’t affirmation of your beliefs, the point is to provide facts that can help you make educated and informed decisions.

I believe the problem nowadays lies with the people who watch talking heads/political commentators/opinion people/etc and think that all of that is “news.”

That and they never leave their echo chamber of confirmation bias.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by BCauley

I believe the problem nowadays lies with the people who watch talking heads/political commentators/opinion people/etc and think that all of that is “news.”

That and they never leave their echo chamber of confirmation bias.

+1

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

WaterCooler Talk - Off Topics
General chat and off topic stuff. Please no politics or religion.

Aren't you precious?!?

Originally Posted by Kzoo

The Criminal Cabal consists of, among others, the Central Bankers, the WEF and Klaus Schwab, the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, and the Windsors (some would include the Vatican on this list, to my initial surprise as I'm Catholic).

The Buffett, Soros, Gates, Bloomberg, Bezos, Zuckerberg, and the 'political leader' type folks in our world are simply their foot soldiers carrying out and pushing their agenda towards a One World Government/Global Reset, a cashless Digital Currency, population control, etc.

Hmm, just as political as my statement and your response ... crickets.

Originally Posted by irv

I believe our media is corrupt and biased with a penchant for protecting U.S. interests by creating and pushing false narratives in an effort to make them look all divine and the like so I really have a hard time believing much of anything that we are being told about Putin, Russia, Zelenskyy and the Ukraine.

Just as political as my statement and your response ... crickets.

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

I say we send The Donald over there.

See if he can talk his boy into ending this.

He does that, he would wrap up the next election.

Yeah, this was kind of tongue-in-cheek, but still just as political as my statement and your response ... crickets.

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Have people forgotten the level of corruption and meddling the US has done in Ukraine? Or Soros's love of Ukraine?

Why did Obama/Biden allow the Clintons to sell uranium to the Russians?

Why did Biden kill our energy independence, only to buy Russian energy exports?


I'm focused on our involvement in this "conflict". Our government is as much to blame as anyone, yet I don't hear any of that coming from the MSM/news.

Much, much more political than my statement and your response ... crickets.

Originally Posted by irv

He is likely just upset like John Kerry is about Putin's lack of buying into the global warming scam. Couldn't believe my eyes when I seen that. Just how stupid can these dingleberries get?
How dare Putin invade another country and not be concerned about climate change!!!

"“I hope President Putin will help us to stay on track with respect to what we need to do for the climate,” Mr. Kerry added"

While climate change should not be political, you think it is. Remember this thread from May 2020:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...+change&page=2

You claimed I believe in climate change because I want to punish, weaken, and control "the people that I hate, the ones that voted for," in YOUR words, "The Orange Meanie." Remember that? YOU brought up politics. Good times, huh?

And your response to Irv's political statement ... crickets.

Very selective of you, don't you think?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

Shemp, you may acknowledge what Gorbachev said about a NATO promise, but do you believe him? Based on the rest of your reply, the answer is, "No." If you did, you wouldn't have linked to Margolis' article where he pretty much only talks about the Russians being LIED to.

As for the highlighted portion, if there is something in there about this "spirit," find it. How many times do I have to tell you that you are the one making the claim, you are the one who needs to provide evidence that your claim is valid. Do you really expect me to accept your claim because there MIGHT be something in the documents to support you? REALLY??

Lastly, in regards to this "spirit" that was "violated," how exactly would that be documented? If NATO expansion was never brought up by any country on either side, as Gorbachev says, what "spirit" are you talking about?

Shemp, I really don't get it. For some reason, you're still fishing for that angle so you can say Putin is justified in attacking Ukraine because of US lies or phantom "spirits" about NATO expansion.



Get used to it Shemp. There are those who say, "Love it or leave it." I don't know how many times I've heard that. There is one political party in this country that seems to think they own patriotism and you're either with them or against them. If you don't wrap yourself up in the American flag or wear a flag pin, you're unpatriotic. If they are in the White House, you don't dare criticize the government because to do so is unpatriotic. In fact, you could probably storm the Capitol to prevent a fair election from being certified and you would probably be called a patriot by them ... if it is done to keep them in the White House of course.

Infraction given - Politics