WW3 Please SAY NO!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

Bob, I agree with most of what you wrote. Do I think we can solve all our problems by learning from history? Of course not. Firstly, take a thousand people and a single historical event and you will probably get nearly a thousand interpretations of how that event should be reflected in actions today. Secondly, societal norms and morals change through time. What was once accepted, may no longer be accepted today.

But, does that mean we shouldn't try to use historical events to provide some background to how we approach things today? Of course not.



I do take some exceptions with the part of your post that I quote above. I am tired of the bothsidesism that seems to permeate throughout any topical discourse today. In the current conflict, the one presently under discussion, there is only ONE side that is causing senseless killing and infliction of pain and suffering. Wouldn't you agree?



Could not agree with you more.

Hey Mike, The one thing you disagreed with me on is actually not supposed to just be about the current situation. My apologies if it didn't come across that way. That statement was made in regard to all the situations that have ever occurred in the history of mankind, what is going on right now, and what has yet to occur in the future, in which innocent people on all different sides of these issues always seem to end up being the ones paying the highest price. I'm not for both sides, I'm really more for no sides, unless you are counting ALL the common, ordinary, everyday people from ALL races and societies as one unified side. That is the side I am for, not the ones created and put out there by the various leaders in different countries/societies/religions around the world. I always think of the old Black Sabbath song, War Pigs, and tend to view most politicians and military leaders, and some religious leaders, in that light. If these people are supposed to be our leaders and speaking out and fighting for us (Or is it really more for them?), why do they always do it from the rear? If we made all these a--hole politicians, religious, and military leaders who keep getting us into all these conflicts actually have to go out and face one another in fights, instead of sending out young people that still have their whole lives ahead of them to kill and be killed on their behalf, I wonder how much more often they'd come up with peaceful, rational solutions to problems, as opposed to actually ever risking their own lives.

And granted, that won't work in deterring all political/military/religious leaders from still getting us into all kinds of conflicts because let's face it, some of them will always still be psychopathic megalomaniacs. But maybe we can at least start culling the herd of them if they want to kill each other off fighting among themselves. Just leave the rest of us out of it, please.

[sbfinley]

While some garbage want to justify this terrible invasion and it’s horrible cost to human lives and well being because Russia was threatened by NATO expansion: here are actual heroes threatened.

Today in the Ukrainian city of Melitopol, protestors in the city squared were threatened and told they would be shot if they exited the square. So they went for a stroll, and protested throughout the city. This is how real patriots face adversity, not fakriots justifying the slaughter and destruction of a neighbor state that wants to self govern.


https://www.mv.org.ua/news/264230-v_...qg3MMmd6sh4k7A

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by BobC

Hey Mike, The one thing you disagreed with me on is actually not supposed to just be about the current situation. My apologies if it didn't come across that way. That statement was made in regard to all the situations that have ever occurred in the history of mankind, what is going on right now, and what has yet to occur in the future, in which innocent people on all different sides of these issues always seem to end up being the ones paying the highest price. I'm not for both sides, I'm really more for no sides, unless you are counting ALL the common, ordinary, everyday people from ALL races and societies as one unified side. That is the side I am for, not the ones created and put out there by the various leaders in different countries/societies/religions around the world. I always think of the old Black Sabbath song, War Pigs, and tend to view most politicians and military leaders, and some religious leaders, in that light. If these people are supposed to be our leaders and speaking out and fighting for us (Or is it really more for them?), why do they always do it from the rear? If we made all these a--hole politicians, religious, and military leaders who keep getting us into all these conflicts actually have to go out and face one another in fights, instead of sending out young people that still have their whole lives ahead of them to kill and be killed on their behalf, I wonder how much more often they'd come up with peaceful, rational solutions to problems, as opposed to actually ever risking their own lives.

And granted, that won't work in deterring all political/military/religious leaders from still getting us into all kinds of conflicts because let's face it, some of them will always still be psychopathic megalomaniacs. But maybe we can at least start culling the herd of them if they want to kill each other off fighting among themselves. Just leave the rest of us out of it, please.

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you intended.

As for Black Sabbath, they're one of my favorite bands (I especially love Vol. 4, but Paranoid is also a great album). Another great song on this topic is Dylan's "Masters of War" on his Freewheelin' album.

100% agree with the rest.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you intended.

As for Black Sabbath, they're one of my favorite bands (I especially love Vol. 4, but Paranoid is also a great album). Another great song on this topic is Dylan's "Masters of War" on his Freewheelin' album.

100% agree with the rest.

No problem! Figured you may have just misunderstood my meaning/intention.

As for Sabbath, have loved them since they first came out. Still have their original early albums from when they all were released. I have always thought and felt their very first, self-titled album, was their absolute best. Don't get me wrong, have Vol. 4 and Paranoid from when they were first released, and both are great. But there's something about their initial album that just puts it apart for me. But only really like them with Ozzie. They were never the same with Dio or anyone else. In fact, about the only song of theirs, without Ozzie singing lead, that I really like for some reason is It's Alright, with I believe Bill Ward handling the lead vocals. Sounds nothing like a typical Sabbath song, but is one of those tunes you can't seem to get out of your head. Did you ever get the opportunity to see them perform live with Ozzie?

Dylan's song is great also. But Sabbath's War Pigs is the first truly anti-war song I remember put out by such a different band than the normal protest and anti-war ballads and standards we were used to at the time. And the song's lyrics from back then are as true today as ever. Basically, the poor, common people of the world end up paying the price for fighting wars started by all the rich, powerful, and crazy a--holes on the planet. We are supposed to learn from history so we don't keep repeating our mistakes, and yet.......

[BobC]

No matter how this all ends up, why not let the people decide? Have the people of Ukraine vote as to whether or not they want to be part of Russia. And if an overwhelming majority agrees, let them become part of Russia.

Of course Putin would never agree to and abide by this because the Russian government doesn't give common people any true choice as to how they want to be governed, do they? There is no single perfect way for all people to live and be governed. Everyone has different thoughts and ideas on what is right or wrong, and just because you're born into a certain culture or society doesn't mean you should be forced to follow a certain way of life or thinking because of the ill luck you had in being born into a culture/society you ultimately don't like, or want to be part of.

And all this crap about NATO and nukes in neighboring countries being part of the reasoning behind this "special military operation" makes no sense. With all the long range missiles and nuclear weapons in the world today, so what if you don't have missiles in Ukraine pointed at you? Chances are just a small country or two away there are other countries with missiles already pointed at Russia. Just like Russia and China and other communist countries have their missiles and nuclear weapons pointed right back at us and other non-communist and NATO countries in the world. I can only guess at how many missiles and nuclear weapons are right at this moment targeting and locked onto New York city or Washington DC, and await only someone giving the order to have them launched. And the same for those on our supposed side locked onto Moscow and Beijing. I'm guessing the real reason for the uproar is that a missile fired from the Ukraine at Moscow, versus one being fired from the continental US, wouldn't give the Russians as much time to detect the launch and shoot it down. And even if they were able to shoot it down in time, it would still be over Russian territory and likely to inflict damage to Russian people and property, as opposed to a weapons launch say from the US that gets intercepted and shot down over an ocean or some other country. And isn't that one of, if not the main reason, we had the Cuban missile crisis back in Kennedy's day? Our side thinks the same way. Maybe if ALL these countries, ON ALL SIDES of these arguments would just stop all the lies and BS they spew out to all the common ordinary people of the world, and for once were open and honest with the entire planet about what was really bothering them, maybe........just maybe, all these world leaders for once could do something for the betterment of all mankind, and not just for their stupid, greedy selves. But I ain't holding my breath, because at the end of the day we're all mostly still just stupid, selfish humans.

The problem with being humans is that there will never be 100% agreement on how we should live and interact with one another. So we are doomed to always have wars and conflicts it seems, at least till we finally succeed in killing ourselves off, or we're done in by some cataclysmic event beyond our control. One of my hopefully most realistically obtainable goals is that I don't live long enough to see either of those things happen. That along with one day completing an S74-1 white silk Ty Cobb advertising back run.

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by BobC

No problem! Figured you may have just misunderstood my meaning/intention.

As for Sabbath, have loved them since they first came out. Still have their original early albums from when they all were released. I have always thought and felt their very first, self-titled album, was their absolute best. Don't get me wrong, have Vol. 4 and Paranoid from when they were first released, and both are great. But there's something about their initial album that just puts it apart for me. But only really like them with Ozzie. They were never the same with Dio or anyone else. In fact, about the only song of theirs, without Ozzie singing lead, that I really like for some reason is It's Alright, with I believe Bill Ward handling the lead vocals. Sounds nothing like a typical Sabbath song, but is one of those tunes you can't seem to get out of your head. Did you ever get the opportunity to see them perform live with Ozzie?

Dylan's song is great also. But Sabbath's War Pigs is the first truly anti-war song I remember put out by such a different band than the normal protest and anti-war ballads and standards we were used to at the time. And the song's lyrics from back then are as true today as ever. Basically, the poor, common people of the world end up paying the price for fighting wars started by all the rich, powerful, and crazy a--holes on the planet. We are supposed to learn from history so we don't keep repeating our mistakes, and yet.......

I've never seen Sabbath live. Unfortunately. But I also have all the albums I bought back in the day. From their first album to the last one I bought, Mob Rules in 1981. I guess we'll have to disagree on Dio. I liked him in Sabbath. I also liked him in Rainbow and a lot of his solo stuff. Hmm, since we disagree on what is their best album and Dio, are we supposed to start shouting at and denigrating each other? Isn't that how it works these days?

Take care.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe View Post
Churchill and the Brits would be speaking German right now if the US didn't get involved.

False; Churchill hasn't spoken any language for quite some time

[BobC]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

I've never seen Sabbath live. Unfortunately. But I also have all the albums I bought back in the day. From their first album to the last one I bought, Mob Rules in 1981. I guess we'll have to disagree on Dio. I liked him in Sabbath. I also liked him in Rainbow and a lot of his solo stuff. Hmm, since we disagree on what is their best album and Dio, are we supposed to start shouting at and denigrating each other? Isn't that how it works these days?

Take care.

LOL

No, we're not disagreeing about Sabbath. I don't totally dislike them with RJD, just always liked them more with Ozzie. And too bad you never got the chance to see them together live. Never had the time to see them when they were first together. Almost caught them on their Black and Blue Tour with Blue Oyster Cult and Riot in 1980, but something came up and couldn't make it. Always regretted missing that show, but not too much since Ozzie had already been kicked from the group the year before. So when luck would have it, in 1999 Ozzie got back with Sabbath and was headlining Ozzfest. I made sure to get there. Unbelievable show as Sabbath and Ozzy hit the main stage following Slayer, Deftones, System of a Down, Godsmack, Primus, and with Rob Zombie as Sabbath's lead-in. They sounded and played better than I ever would have hoped, and their playlist was one for the ages:

War Pigs
N.I.B.
Fairies Wear Boots
After Forever
Sweetleaf
Into the Void
Electric Funeral
Dirty Women
Black Sabbath
Paranoid

I only wish they could have included Snowblind and Iron Man on the playlist. And Ozzy even came out with buckets of water, and then a fire hose, to help cool the crowd down. For the few years it was around, Ozzfest was truly a unique experience. But if you were lucky enough to catch it one of the few times Ozzy headlined with Sabbath..........that was something else.

Take care.

[blackandgold]

This was their Ozzfest setlist in Pittsburgh in 2001:
N.I.B.
Snowblind
Scary Dreams
War Pigs
Iron Man
Into the Void
The Wizard
Black Sabbath
Paranoid
Children of the Grave

[Cliff Bowman]

I don’t know much about Black Sabbath other than the first two albums but I do know that Ian Gillan said that he was the worst possible lead singer for them and that the album he did with them was a disaster, but he also says the other three in the group are great guys and he’s on excellent terms with them.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by blackandgold

This was their Ozzfest setlist in Pittsburgh in 2001:
N.I.B.
Snowblind
Scary Dreams
War Pigs
Iron Man
Into the Void
The Wizard
Black Sabbath
Paranoid
Children of the Grave

Another great song list, and see that they did add Snowblind and Iron Man to that year's song list. Wish I could have seen them perform those two songs. I think Black Sabbath and N.I.B. are their two greatest and most iconic songs ever. Biggest reason I like their very first album most of all, those are the first and last songs on Side 1. And when you throw in Geezer's bass solo intro to N.I.B. (titleded "Bassically"), it really sets that finale up. At the time, they were a sound that had never been heard before. And to complete it you need Ozzy's voice. Iommi's sound was also unique. Do you know the story behind his accident and why he plays and sounds like he does? He is one of the most underrated guitarists of all time IMHO. And the bass/rhythm section of Ward and Butler are up there with the best as well, and are second to none.

I saw Ozzy/Sabbath in Columbus at the 1999 Ozzfest, with my then 13 year old oldest son, and a couple of his friends. We made a pact that none of them would ever tell their Mothers what I really took them to. LOL

Took my daughter, who's 3 years older than my elder son, to the 2000 Ozzfest, which was much closer to home, at the Blossom Music Center located between Cleveland and Akron. Unfortunately, Ozzy went solo without Sabbath that year. It was still great, but just wasn't the same. He did mostly his solo hits, but still threw in War Pigs, and ended the night with Paranoid. But it wasn't Sabbath.