Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

Yes I agree athletes are stronger and faster than they used to be. It is true in golf as well, due to tech improvements in golf equipment and golf balls. So you can’t compare scores although it’s hard to dispute Tiger’s 97 Masters was the greatest performance of all time on that golf course. Because he won by 12 shots.

I think the most objective way is to compare relative dominance in one’s era but as you noted it doesn’t account for greater inclusion of races and nationalities, not to mention population growth. Based on that I suppose you can argue the best athletes today are more elite than the best athletes of yesteryear. Which is why best ever debates are pointless nonetheless reasonably entertaining ways of killing time.

Right. Plus they don't begin to account for intangibles - impossible to quantify skills. Like what Ty Cobb's daring base running and general intimidation did to distract and disrupt opponents. Or what effect Lou Gehrig waiting in the on deck circle had on the pitches hurlers were compelled to serve Ruth (when they would've preferred to just pitch around him.)

When people cannot agree on the definition of "greatest," they can't possibly agree on who deserves to hold that title.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Or what effect Lou Gehrig waiting in the on deck circle had on the pitches hurlers were compelled to serve Ruth (when they would've preferred to just pitch around him.)

This is such a big part of the game, and yet you so rarely see it mentioned.

Mays and McCovey too. I'd guess that if they'd been reversed in the lineup for all those years with the Giants, it would've been McCovey who hit around 660 HR and Mays in the career 500s instead

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

This is such a big part of the game, and yet you so rarely see it mentioned.

Mays and McCovey too. I'd guess that if they'd been reversed in the lineup for all those years with the Giants, it would've been McCovey who hit around 660 HR and Mays in the career 500s instead

Mays averaged 37 HR a year before McCovey showed up. Not saying it didn't have an effect but maybe not quite as big as you think. better case might be with Eddie Matthews and Hank Aaron who overlapped for almost all of the early and prime part of their careers.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Mays averaged 37 HR a year before McCovey showed up. Not saying it didn't have an effect but maybe not quite as big as you think. better case might be with Eddie Matthews and Hank Aaron who overlapped for almost all of the early and prime part of their careers.

Yes but Mays had slowed down hitting them for five years straight (before McCovey got there and started to become established). Had 163 homers from 1956 to 1960. Then he hit 226 from '61 to '65.

So while my numbers before may have been exaggerated a little, I doubt it's by much!

I never thought about the Mathews example that much. Poor guy is just forgotten sometimes. And he sure shouldn't be

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

Yes but Mays had slowed down hitting them for five years straight (before McCovey got there and started to become established). Had 163 homers from 1956 to 1960. Then he hit 226 from '61 to '65.

So while my numbers before may have been exaggerated a little, I doubt it's by much!

You're neglecting the historical cause and effect with Mr. Mays. When the Giants moved to Frisco, everyone thought Willie would hit 50 homers a year. But the ballpark was situated in such a windy area, as in the wind daily blew in with gale force. Say Hey's power crumbled against the "anvil wind". His meager dinger totals upset the Frisco boo-birds, and they directed their fury on Willie with a vengeance. Say Hey was in a bad way; he couldn't take it.

Finally, he whined to the owner, Horace Stoneham, to move the fences in substantially to try to blunt the wind, and allow him to hit more home runs at home. Stonehom acquiesced the slugger's demands, and Willie finally reached 40 dingers in 1961, and did so essentially thereafter.

However, he wasn't a complete enough player to get the perennial Giant bridesmaids into the fall classic, save for '62, when the Giants played a humdinger of a Series against the Yanks, but fell short. Willie? No homers, one measly RBI, and a meager .250 batting average. He had his chance to prove something major to himself, his reputation, and his team----but failed miserably. --- Brian Powell

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by brian1961

However, he wasn't a complete enough player to get the perennial Giant bridesmaids into the fall classic, save for '62, when the Giants played a humdinger of a Series against the Yanks, but fell short. Willie? No homers, one measly RBI, and a meager .250 batting average. He had his chance to prove something major to himself, his reputation, and his team----but failed miserably. --- Brian Powell

You could say the same thing regarding Ted Williams and the 1946 Series.

Ted, by the way, if he's had a Gehrig or McCovey behind him, might've converted some of those walks he got into hits, and who knows how many points higher his average might've been, or how many more home runs he would've hit.

[brian1961]

Quite so, Mark. However, those Cardinals put that severe, audacious shift on Teddy during the Series. It seemed to tie him up in knots. If Ted had more of the power hitters the Giants had in those hardball 60s, he might have broken Babe's record!

Back to Willie on that line---for a time he shared the lineup with Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, Jim Ray Hart, Felipe Alou, Tom Haller, and Ed Bailey---all capable of hitting 15+ homers a year, making it tough to pitch around Willie. But it wasn't enough, and Willie languished in great stats but no rings. But so what? My favorite player, Ernie Banks, never played in the Series, but that never stopped me from adoring him. Willie Mays fans have a LOT to be thankful for---he could and did do it all, and with gusto! That tiny video of him soaring for a flyball at the fence, with what seemed like 2 of his teammates trying to snag the ball, and somehow Willie got it makes me shake my head in awe every time I see it.

I adored his 1962 Topps card; he looked so joyous.

Cheers. --- Brian Powell

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by brian1961

You're neglecting the historical cause and effect with Mr. Mays. When the Giants moved to Frisco, everyone thought Willie would hit 50 homers a year. But the ballpark was situated in such a windy area, as in the wind daily blew in with gale force. Say Hey's power crumbled against the "anvil wind". His meager dinger totals upset the Frisco boo-birds, and they directed their fury on Willie with a vengeance. Say Hey was in a bad way; he couldn't take it.

Finally, he whined to the owner, Horace Stoneham, to move the fences in substantially to try to blunt the wind, and allow him to hit more home runs at home. Stonehom acquiesced the slugger's demands, and Willie finally reached 40 dingers in 1961, and did so essentially thereafter.

However, he wasn't a complete enough player to get the perennial Giant bridesmaids into the fall classic, save for '62, when the Giants played a humdinger of a Series against the Yanks, but fell short. Willie? No homers, one measly RBI, and a meager .250 batting average. He had his chance to prove something major to himself, his reputation, and his team----but failed miserably. --- Brian Powell

Mays hit just 10 more total HRs at home vs on the road (during that '61 to '65 period I quoted). So while the fences being moved in helped him some, he was hitting a lot more of them everywhere during that time period w/ McCovey than he had the prior five years (which include his final two years in New York)

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

Mays hit just 10 more total HRs at home vs on the road (during that '61 to '65 period I quoted). So while the fences being moved in helped him some, he was hitting a lot more of them everywhere during that time period w/ McCovey than he had the prior five years (which include his final two years in New York)

Wow, John, just TEN more homers for that five-year period, after owner Horace Stoneham obliged Say Hey by moving in the outfield fences!?*! Makes me want to become an honorary Frisco boo-bird hearing that. I shan't do an impersonation of one, for I do not wish to upset Willie's many feverish fans. Moreover, I'm just teasing. Willie was awesome. And, I must add, it was Dodger Lou Johnson himself that said of Willie Mays's role at quelling the riot on the afternoon of August 22, 1965: "You can thank Mays that there wasn't a real riot out there. If it wasn't for Willie Mays, it could have been a lot worse. Willie did a hell of a job in stopping the battle." -- Brian Powell