Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

Yes but Mays had slowed down hitting them for five years straight (before McCovey got there and started to become established). Had 163 homers from 1956 to 1960. Then he hit 226 from '61 to '65.

So while my numbers before may have been exaggerated a little, I doubt it's by much!

You're neglecting the historical cause and effect with Mr. Mays. When the Giants moved to Frisco, everyone thought Willie would hit 50 homers a year. But the ballpark was situated in such a windy area, as in the wind daily blew in with gale force. Say Hey's power crumbled against the "anvil wind". His meager dinger totals upset the Frisco boo-birds, and they directed their fury on Willie with a vengeance. Say Hey was in a bad way; he couldn't take it.

Finally, he whined to the owner, Horace Stoneham, to move the fences in substantially to try to blunt the wind, and allow him to hit more home runs at home. Stonehom acquiesced the slugger's demands, and Willie finally reached 40 dingers in 1961, and did so essentially thereafter.

However, he wasn't a complete enough player to get the perennial Giant bridesmaids into the fall classic, save for '62, when the Giants played a humdinger of a Series against the Yanks, but fell short. Willie? No homers, one measly RBI, and a meager .250 batting average. He had his chance to prove something major to himself, his reputation, and his team----but failed miserably. --- Brian Powell

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by brian1961

However, he wasn't a complete enough player to get the perennial Giant bridesmaids into the fall classic, save for '62, when the Giants played a humdinger of a Series against the Yanks, but fell short. Willie? No homers, one measly RBI, and a meager .250 batting average. He had his chance to prove something major to himself, his reputation, and his team----but failed miserably. --- Brian Powell

You could say the same thing regarding Ted Williams and the 1946 Series.

Ted, by the way, if he's had a Gehrig or McCovey behind him, might've converted some of those walks he got into hits, and who knows how many points higher his average might've been, or how many more home runs he would've hit.

[brian1961]

Quite so, Mark. However, those Cardinals put that severe, audacious shift on Teddy during the Series. It seemed to tie him up in knots. If Ted had more of the power hitters the Giants had in those hardball 60s, he might have broken Babe's record!

Back to Willie on that line---for a time he shared the lineup with Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, Jim Ray Hart, Felipe Alou, Tom Haller, and Ed Bailey---all capable of hitting 15+ homers a year, making it tough to pitch around Willie. But it wasn't enough, and Willie languished in great stats but no rings. But so what? My favorite player, Ernie Banks, never played in the Series, but that never stopped me from adoring him. Willie Mays fans have a LOT to be thankful for---he could and did do it all, and with gusto! That tiny video of him soaring for a flyball at the fence, with what seemed like 2 of his teammates trying to snag the ball, and somehow Willie got it makes me shake my head in awe every time I see it.

I adored his 1962 Topps card; he looked so joyous.

Cheers. --- Brian Powell

[Peter_Spaeth]

Willie Mays not a complete player? Uh, where was he deficient?

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Willie Mays not a complete player? Uh, where was he deficient?

I don't know that there's a legitimate ranking that would have Mays outside the top 5 all time, much less outside the top 10. Maybe he's just ribbing the Giants - can't imagine it's a serious argument.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by brian1961

You're neglecting the historical cause and effect with Mr. Mays. When the Giants moved to Frisco, everyone thought Willie would hit 50 homers a year. But the ballpark was situated in such a windy area, as in the wind daily blew in with gale force. Say Hey's power crumbled against the "anvil wind". His meager dinger totals upset the Frisco boo-birds, and they directed their fury on Willie with a vengeance. Say Hey was in a bad way; he couldn't take it.

Finally, he whined to the owner, Horace Stoneham, to move the fences in substantially to try to blunt the wind, and allow him to hit more home runs at home. Stonehom acquiesced the slugger's demands, and Willie finally reached 40 dingers in 1961, and did so essentially thereafter.

However, he wasn't a complete enough player to get the perennial Giant bridesmaids into the fall classic, save for '62, when the Giants played a humdinger of a Series against the Yanks, but fell short. Willie? No homers, one measly RBI, and a meager .250 batting average. He had his chance to prove something major to himself, his reputation, and his team----but failed miserably. --- Brian Powell

Mays hit just 10 more total HRs at home vs on the road (during that '61 to '65 period I quoted). So while the fences being moved in helped him some, he was hitting a lot more of them everywhere during that time period w/ McCovey than he had the prior five years (which include his final two years in New York)

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

Mays hit just 10 more total HRs at home vs on the road (during that '61 to '65 period I quoted). So while the fences being moved in helped him some, he was hitting a lot more of them everywhere during that time period w/ McCovey than he had the prior five years (which include his final two years in New York)

Wow, John, just TEN more homers for that five-year period, after owner Horace Stoneham obliged Say Hey by moving in the outfield fences!?*! Makes me want to become an honorary Frisco boo-bird hearing that. I shan't do an impersonation of one, for I do not wish to upset Willie's many feverish fans. Moreover, I'm just teasing. Willie was awesome. And, I must add, it was Dodger Lou Johnson himself that said of Willie Mays's role at quelling the riot on the afternoon of August 22, 1965: "You can thank Mays that there wasn't a real riot out there. If it wasn't for Willie Mays, it could have been a lot worse. Willie did a hell of a job in stopping the battle." -- Brian Powell

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by brian1961

Wow, John, just TEN more homers for that five-year period, after owner Horace Stoneham obliged Say Hey by moving in the outfield fences!?*! Makes me want to become an honorary Frisco boo-bird hearing that. I shan't do an impersonation of one, for I do not wish to upset Willie's many feverish fans. Moreover, I'm just teasing. Willie was awesome. And, I must add, it was Dodger Lou Johnson himself that said of Willie Mays's role at quelling the riot on the afternoon of August 22, 1965: "You can thank Mays that there wasn't a real riot out there. If it wasn't for Willie Mays, it could have been a lot worse. Willie did a hell of a job in stopping the battle." -- Brian Powell

I'm actually one of the last people to defend Mays (relative to how revered he is in general). Post season numbers and a couple other things I won't get into in this "best lefty" thread. My point about the batting order and McCovey is naturally a strike against him, not for him.

Anyway, back to eating popcorn while watching the debate about pitchers and who's better at crunching numbers