ebay finds that PWCC engaged in shill bidding?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The single DeLorme screenshot I agree can be explained, but I knew DeLorme and you presumably didn't and I can tell you from what he told and showed me that lots of stuff was going on with Brent's knowledge. If you're defending Brent you're barking up the wrong tree, IMO. And don't even get me started about his knowledge of selling whacked cards, or stuff he did himself.

No, I did not know DeLorme. Nor do I know Brent. I am not well connected in this hobby. I accept that there are all sorts of shenanigans going on that I know little to nothing about. Usually, where there's smoke, there's fire. But I've also encountered what comes across to me as a whole lot of fog that people in this hobby seem to want to call smoke for some reason. It just seems to build and build and the next thing you know, there's this avalanche being built from logical fallacies and rampant speculation. This is the stuff I keep finding myself combatting. It's the conclusions that people draw from the "evidence" that I struggle with.

This screenshot topic is a prime example. It keeps getting passed around as though it were evidence of PWCC instructing their buyers to shill bid on their auctions. This doesn't appear to be true though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

No, I did not know DeLorme. Nor do I know Brent. I am not well connected in this hobby. I accept that there are all sorts of shenanigans going on that I know little to nothing about. Usually, where there's smoke, there's fire. But I've also encountered what comes across to me as a whole lot of fog that people in this hobby seem to want to call smoke for some reason. It just seems to build and build and the next thing you know, there's this avalanche being built from logical fallacies and rampant speculation. This is the stuff I keep finding myself combatting. It's the conclusions that people draw from the "evidence" that I struggle with.

This screenshot topic is a prime example. It keeps getting passed around as though it were evidence of PWCC instructing their buyers to shill bid on their auctions. This doesn't appear to be true though.

Well when I post something and include an implicit or explicit conclusion, I can't at the same time post or cross-link 20 years' worth of knowledge that supports what I am saying, can I? A lot of other people who post have lots of context behind them too. What you're doing may make sense in some cases but not in others. Every post can't be freestanding. Most readers are regulars and have the context too.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This screenshot topic is a prime example. It keeps getting passed around as though it were evidence of PWCC instructing their buyers to shill bid on their auctions. This doesn't appear to be true though.

In the screenshot he basically demands the guy places the high bid. And they reference previous discussions they have had around bid increments.

Not evidence of shill bidding, but does raise a number of questions. First, why is an auction house discussing bidding strategy with a potential buyer? If the bidder is a problem, block his access. This is simple stuff. And how does Brent know the high bid will get beat?

Lots to unpack in that exchange and none of it screams integrity from either side.

[japhi]

For the folks that say they simply pay the price they are comfortable with, and therefore can't be had by a shill bidder....I'm curious to understand where that pricing decision comes from? Do you folks have some magical trading card evaluation logic? Or do you use previous sales history? If the latter, you are absolutely exposed to all these bidding schemes.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by japhi

For the folks that say they simply pay the price they are comfortable with, and therefore can't be had by a shill bidder....I'm curious to understand where that pricing decision comes from? Do you folks have some magical trading card evaluation logic? Or do you use previous sales history? If the latter, you are absolutely exposed to all these bidding schemes.

Throw out PWCC as a comparable sale number valuation, I’ve been doing that for years.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Throw out PWCC as a comparable sale number valuation, I’ve been doing that for years.

Like the old Russian judge thing in gymnastics.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

except that the numbers you AREN'T throwing out have still been influenced by PWCC numbers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

except that the numbers you AREN'T throwing out have still been influenced by PWCC numbers.

It's a giant cluster fork.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Throw out PWCC as a comparable sale number valuation, I’ve been doing that for years.

Doesn’t work that way unless you can convince the rest of the market to do same.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by japhi

Doesn’t work that way unless you can convince the rest of the market to do same.

Hopefully the rest will wake up and smell the garbage for what it is,’it’s
Caca.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by japhi

For the folks that say they simply pay the price they are comfortable with, and therefore can't be had by a shill bidder....I'm curious to understand where that pricing decision comes from? Do you folks have some magical trading card evaluation logic? Or do you use previous sales history? If the latter, you are absolutely exposed to all these bidding schemes.

It is very simple for me. I set the highest price that I am comfortable in paying and submit it. If it goes above that price. I move on to the next auction of a like item. No science or woo involved in the decision making on my end. Just the bottom (or top) line for me.

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

It is very simple for me. I set the highest price that I am comfortable in paying and submit it. If it goes above that price. I move on to the next auction of a like item. No science or woo involved in the decision making on my end. Just the bottom (or top) line for me.

The question is how you arrive at that highest bid value. If you use prices previously paid on the same or similar cards in order to decide how much you are comfortable paying, then you are exposed to the shilling problem. If you use no historical sales data in deciding your highest price, but others bidding against you are using that historical pricing to make their bids, and you lose the item as a result, then you are still exposed to the problem.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by chadeast

The question is how you arrive at that highest bid value. If you use prices previously paid on the same or similar cards in order to decide how much you are comfortable paying, then you are exposed to the shilling problem. If you use no historical sales data in deciding your highest price, but others bidding against you are using that historical pricing to make their bids, and you lose the item as a result, then you are still exposed to the problem.

It is not that complicated, I set a price based simply on what I want to pay for the item. I am not exposed to anything. I set my price and if the bidding goes up to my price and I get the card at the high end, so be it and I get the card. I am not exposed to anything but the amount I am willing to pay. Nothing more, nothing less.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

It is not that complicated, I set a price based simply on what I want to pay for the item. I am not exposed to anything. I set my price and if the bidding goes up to my price and I get the card at the high end, so be it and I get the card. I am not exposed to anything but the amount I am willing to pay. Nothing more, nothing less.

That’s called being an “enabler”. Shillers prey on people like you because you are happy paying your highest price when, without shilling, you would get many items for much less.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

It is not that complicated, I set a price based simply on what I want to pay for the item. I am not exposed to anything. I set my price and if the bidding goes up to my price and I get the card at the high end, so be it and I get the card. I am not exposed to anything but the amount I am willing to pay. Nothing more, nothing less.

You like paying the absolute highest price you're comfortable with every time?

If you're willing to pay $100 for a card and someone lists it for $80, do you throw in an extra $20?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

It is very simple for me. I set the highest price that I am comfortable in paying and submit it. If it goes above that price. I move on to the next auction of a like item. No science or woo involved in the decision making on my end. Just the bottom (or top) line for me.

This sounds like the equivalent of walking into the car dealership and having the guy ask you "well, how much can you spend a month . . . "

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

This sounds like the equivalent of walking into the car dealership and having the guy ask you "well, how much can you spend a month . . . "

I beg to differ. Buying a car and buying a card are not the same in any shape or form. Buying a car is negotiating the best price for me.

Setting a high bid for a card is how much I want to pay for the card.

This is not rocket science in any shape or form. I set my buy price, if I get the item I am bidding on for that price, good for me. If it goes for less, good for me. If it goes for more, good for the person who bought it.

It is exactly that simple for me. YMMV