Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"

[SD]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I can't argue with his stats and yeah he could swing the bat gorgeously. Maybe it was just his attitude once the scandal broke, dunno.

"I HAVE NEVER USED STEROIDS. PERIOD. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAY IT ANY CLEARER THAN THAT. NEVER"

- RAFAEL PALMEIRO


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by SD

"I HAVE NEVER USED STEROIDS. PERIOD. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAY IT ANY CLEARER THAN THAT. NEVER"

- RAFAEL PALMEIRO


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I think he still claims his failed test was the result of Tejada injecting him with what Tejada told him was a B12 shot. On the other hand, Canseco was unequivocal about him using all along. On the other hand consider THAT source.

BTW didn't Sheffield have a similar excuse for HIS failed test, that Bonds had injected him and lied to him about what it was?

[SD]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think he still claims his failed test was the result of Tejada injecting him with what Tejada told him was a B12 shot. On the other hand, Canseco was unequivocal about him using all along. On the other hand consider THAT source.

Yeah him and Juan González where definitely clean.

Those early 90 Ranger teams where fun to watch.
Canseco ruined them.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by SD

Yeah him and Juan González where definitely clean.

Those early 90 Ranger teams where fun to watch.
Canseco ruined them.

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Loved the batting stance of Gonzalez who I think modeled it after Franco with the bat cocked over the head. Saw him very early in his career in a Fenway day game. They announce him and I'm thinking who? Then he just crushes one over the Monster, and I'm thinking, well this kid got all of that one. Next time up, he does the exact same thing, and this time I'm thinking what a swing, he may be the real deal. And he was, until he wasn't. I guess he has only himself to blame for taking a bad path, but man what a waste.

[SD]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Loved the batting stance of Gonzalez who I think modeled it after Franco with the bat cocked over the head. Saw him very early in his career in a Fenway day game. They announce him and I'm thinking who? Then he just crushes one over the Monster, and I'm thinking, well this kid got all of that one. Next time up, he does the exact same thing, and this time I'm thinking what a swing, he may be the real deal. And he was, until he wasn't. I guess he has only himself to blame for taking a bad path, but man what a waste.

Julio Franco, not a HOF in my books but I think he could have gotten to 3k hits and in the hall had he not spent so much time in Japan.

Still like him more then Baines.
Franco vs Baines
43.6 war 38.7 war

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[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by SD

Yeah him and Juan González where definitely clean.

Those early 90 Ranger teams where fun to watch.
Canseco ruined them.

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Hell yes they were! Ivan, Gonzo, Franco, Raffy, Will Clark, Rusty Greer (very underrated OFer)...then you get Nolan Ryan, Kenny Rogers and Kevin Brown as pitchers at various points...come on!

Raffy is 100% a HOFer by the numbers (Ive come full circle on PEDs and if roid guys are in and Selig is in then dont pick and choose between them...all or none)

Gonzo IMO is a HOFer but Im a Rangers fan so

PS: Honestly if I could bet money I would bet Cal Ripken Jr was a PED user (I think that's Thomas Boswell's mystery HOF player he has not IDed) and what we need to get past this is a HOFer that was a user...like say Ripken if he in fact did...to come out and admit it and that would end this HOF hang up...just a thought.

[SD]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

Hell yes they were! Ivan, Gonzo, Franco, Raffy, Will Clark, Rusty Greer (very underrated OFer)...then you get Nolan Ryan, Kenny Rogers and Kevin Brown as pitchers at various points...come on!



Raffy is 100% a HOFer by the numbers (Ive come full circle on PEDs and if roid guys are in and Selig is in then dont pick and choose between them...all or none)



Gonzo IMO is a HOFer but Im a Rangers fan so

Plus Tom Henke and those glasses.

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[rats60]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

Hell yes they were! Ivan, Gonzo, Franco, Raffy, Will Clark, Rusty Greer (very underrated OFer)...then you get Nolan Ryan, Kenny Rogers and Kevin Brown as pitchers at various points...come on!

Raffy is 100% a HOFer by the numbers (Ive come full circle on PEDs and if roid guys are in and Selig is in then dont pick and choose between them...all or none)

Gonzo IMO is a HOFer but Im a Rangers fan so

PS: Honestly if I could bet money I would bet Cal Ripken Jr was a PED user (I think that's Thomas Boswell's mystery HOF player he has not IDed) and what we need to get past this is a HOFer that was a user...like say Ripken if he in fact did...to come out and admit it and that would end this HOF hang up...just a thought.

None. There are no known steroid users in the HOF. Failed test = Never HOF for Palmeiro.

Not sure what Selig has to do with it other than he tried for a decade to get testing before the union agreed to it.

[SD]

Originally Posted by rats60

None. There are no known steroid users in the HOF. Failed test = Never HOF for Palmeiro.



Not sure what Selig has to do with it other than he tried for a decade to get testing before the union agreed to it.

Just presumed steroid users like Piazza & Bagwell.
Didn't Caminiti claim that at least 50% of the league used anabolic steroids in 01?
Does cocaine help enhance one's performance? Raines & Jenkins admitted to openly using during games.
Ted Williams, Mike Schmidt & Chipper Jones admitted to using greenies before and during games. Mays reportedly took liquid amphetamines while with the Mets. Sounds fairly similar to McGwire's Andro use. Which wasnt banned at the time.
Selig banned Greenies in 05. So amphetamines, a known performance enhancer was commonly available in baseball since the end of WW2. How many immortals where users during this time? It's hard to believe it was a small number.
What about adderal or ritalin?
Tanozolol, which Palmeiro tested positive for was comonly found in beef for years qnd still runs rampant in Mexico. He has never admitted to using and wasn't charged with perjury after testing positive because they couldn't prove that he maliciously took it.
I have no doubt he was a user, but I also believe there is definitely abusers in the hall.
That being said, its hard to blame any of the abusers for their actions. The window of opportunity they have to make money is so small. Of course there will be boundary pushers.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by SD

Just presumed steroid users like Piazza & Bagwell.
Didn't Caminiti claim that at least 50% of the league used anabolic steroids in 01?
Does cocaine help enhance one's performance? Raines & Jenkins admitted to openly using during games.
Ted Williams, Mike Schmidt & Chipper Jones admitted to using greenies before and during games. Mays reportedly took liquid amphetamines while with the Mets. Sounds fairly similar to McGwire's Andro use. Which wasnt banned at the time.
Selig banned Greenies in 05. So amphetamines, a known performance enhancer was commonly available in baseball since the end of WW2. How many immortals where users during this time? It's hard to believe it was a small number.
What about adderal or ritalin?
Tanozolol, which Palmeiro tested positive for was comonly found in beef for years qnd still runs rampant in Mexico. He has never admitted to using and wasn't charged with perjury after testing positive because they couldn't prove that he maliciously took it.
I have no doubt he was a user, but I also believe there is definitely abusers in the hall.
That being said, its hard to blame any of the abusers for their actions. The window of opportunity they have to make money is so small. Of course there will be boundary pushers.

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Palmeiro tested positive some time after testifying so by itself it wouldn't have undermined his testimony, right?

The anti-steroid guys always argue amphetamines were different because they were not banned and because they didn't change the body (or variations on that theme).

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by SD

Just presumed steroid users like Piazza & Bagwell.

And at least a dozen more.

And there will be a confirmed one soon when David Ortiz goes in.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by SD

Just presumed steroid users like Piazza & Bagwell.
Didn't Caminiti claim that at least 50% of the league used anabolic steroids in 01?
Does cocaine help enhance one's performance? Raines & Jenkins admitted to openly using during games.
Ted Williams, Mike Schmidt & Chipper Jones admitted to using greenies before and during games. Mays reportedly took liquid amphetamines while with the Mets. Sounds fairly similar to McGwire's Andro use. Which wasnt banned at the time.
Selig banned Greenies in 05. So amphetamines, a known performance enhancer was commonly available in baseball since the end of WW2. How many immortals where users during this time? It's hard to believe it was a small number.
What about adderal or ritalin?
Tanozolol, which Palmeiro tested positive for was comonly found in beef for years qnd still runs rampant in Mexico. He has never admitted to using and wasn't charged with perjury after testing positive because they couldn't prove that he maliciously took it.
I have no doubt he was a user, but I also believe there is definitely abusers in the hall.
That being said, its hard to blame any of the abusers for their actions. The window of opportunity they have to make money is so small. Of course there will be boundary pushers.

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Do you have any evidence that Piazza or Bagwell used steroids? Accusations without evidence are worthless.

Caminiti can claim whatever he wants, but without names and evidence, his claims aren't believable.

None of the rest are steroids and are irrelevant to my post. Also, using something allowed by MLB is not the same as using something banned.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by SD

Does cocaine help enhance one's performance? Raines & Jenkins admitted to openly using during games.

Not sure if snorting coke helps enhance performance, but apparently using LSD helps you to throw a no-hitter!

As for Ortiz... I agree. When he gets in, it will blur the lines for all of those others currently sitting on the fence. Given enough time, I would bet Arod, McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield and maybe even Palmeiro will make their ways into the Hall.

Not saying that's what I want... I just think it's inevitable, as the current prevailing sentiment weakens and the decision-makers begin to pass away or age out.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think he still claims his failed test was the result of Tejada injecting him with what Tejada told him was a B12 shot. On the other hand, Canseco was unequivocal about him using all along. On the other hand consider THAT source.

Jose is a lot of things but I don't think he's been shown to be wrong about ANY of the guys he's accused of being steroid users.

[SD]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Jose is a lot of things but I don't think he's been shown to be wrong about ANY of the guys he's accused of being steroid users.

https://forum.orioleshangout.com/for...y-on-steroids/

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[Tabe]

Originally Posted by SD

https://forum.orioleshangout.com/for...y-on-steroids/

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Was he lying about Ordonez? The post doesn't say, or even imply, anything of the sort.

Also, Canseco didn't mention Ordozen publicly or accuse him.

[SD]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Was he lying about Ordonez? The post doesn't say, or even imply, anything of the sort.

Also, Canseco didn't mention Ordozen publicly or accuse him.

Oh I'm not questioning his credibility. I guarantee he has allot of insight and truths. I think his motives/ actions have been handled cowardly and his integrity/ timing has always been questionable .

Just thought that was an interesting, Canseco debate to read through.

Also, i think Mags is guilty. You open a case against Canseco for extortion only to drop the charges once the FBI is ready to pursue them. If he was innocent he would have wanted the charges to be pursued.



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[Tabe]

Originally Posted by SD

Oh I'm not questioning his credibility. I guarantee he has allot of insight and truths. I think his motives/ actions have been handled cowardly and his integrity/ timing has always been questionable .

His integrity is questionable. His motives have been horrible. But, again, anybody he's falsely accused? That's what I was responding to - the idea that an accusation is false because it came from Canseco. I'd argue the opposite is far more likely - that it's TRUE because it came from him.