Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by SD

Yeah him and Juan González where definitely clean.

Those early 90 Ranger teams where fun to watch.
Canseco ruined them.

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Hell yes they were! Ivan, Gonzo, Franco, Raffy, Will Clark, Rusty Greer (very underrated OFer)...then you get Nolan Ryan, Kenny Rogers and Kevin Brown as pitchers at various points...come on!

Raffy is 100% a HOFer by the numbers (Ive come full circle on PEDs and if roid guys are in and Selig is in then dont pick and choose between them...all or none)

Gonzo IMO is a HOFer but Im a Rangers fan so

PS: Honestly if I could bet money I would bet Cal Ripken Jr was a PED user (I think that's Thomas Boswell's mystery HOF player he has not IDed) and what we need to get past this is a HOFer that was a user...like say Ripken if he in fact did...to come out and admit it and that would end this HOF hang up...just a thought.

[SD]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

Hell yes they were! Ivan, Gonzo, Franco, Raffy, Will Clark, Rusty Greer (very underrated OFer)...then you get Nolan Ryan, Kenny Rogers and Kevin Brown as pitchers at various points...come on!



Raffy is 100% a HOFer by the numbers (Ive come full circle on PEDs and if roid guys are in and Selig is in then dont pick and choose between them...all or none)



Gonzo IMO is a HOFer but Im a Rangers fan so

Plus Tom Henke and those glasses.

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[rats60]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

Hell yes they were! Ivan, Gonzo, Franco, Raffy, Will Clark, Rusty Greer (very underrated OFer)...then you get Nolan Ryan, Kenny Rogers and Kevin Brown as pitchers at various points...come on!

Raffy is 100% a HOFer by the numbers (Ive come full circle on PEDs and if roid guys are in and Selig is in then dont pick and choose between them...all or none)

Gonzo IMO is a HOFer but Im a Rangers fan so

PS: Honestly if I could bet money I would bet Cal Ripken Jr was a PED user (I think that's Thomas Boswell's mystery HOF player he has not IDed) and what we need to get past this is a HOFer that was a user...like say Ripken if he in fact did...to come out and admit it and that would end this HOF hang up...just a thought.

None. There are no known steroid users in the HOF. Failed test = Never HOF for Palmeiro.

Not sure what Selig has to do with it other than he tried for a decade to get testing before the union agreed to it.

[SD]

Originally Posted by rats60

None. There are no known steroid users in the HOF. Failed test = Never HOF for Palmeiro.



Not sure what Selig has to do with it other than he tried for a decade to get testing before the union agreed to it.

Just presumed steroid users like Piazza & Bagwell.
Didn't Caminiti claim that at least 50% of the league used anabolic steroids in 01?
Does cocaine help enhance one's performance? Raines & Jenkins admitted to openly using during games.
Ted Williams, Mike Schmidt & Chipper Jones admitted to using greenies before and during games. Mays reportedly took liquid amphetamines while with the Mets. Sounds fairly similar to McGwire's Andro use. Which wasnt banned at the time.
Selig banned Greenies in 05. So amphetamines, a known performance enhancer was commonly available in baseball since the end of WW2. How many immortals where users during this time? It's hard to believe it was a small number.
What about adderal or ritalin?
Tanozolol, which Palmeiro tested positive for was comonly found in beef for years qnd still runs rampant in Mexico. He has never admitted to using and wasn't charged with perjury after testing positive because they couldn't prove that he maliciously took it.
I have no doubt he was a user, but I also believe there is definitely abusers in the hall.
That being said, its hard to blame any of the abusers for their actions. The window of opportunity they have to make money is so small. Of course there will be boundary pushers.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by SD

Just presumed steroid users like Piazza & Bagwell.
Didn't Caminiti claim that at least 50% of the league used anabolic steroids in 01?
Does cocaine help enhance one's performance? Raines & Jenkins admitted to openly using during games.
Ted Williams, Mike Schmidt & Chipper Jones admitted to using greenies before and during games. Mays reportedly took liquid amphetamines while with the Mets. Sounds fairly similar to McGwire's Andro use. Which wasnt banned at the time.
Selig banned Greenies in 05. So amphetamines, a known performance enhancer was commonly available in baseball since the end of WW2. How many immortals where users during this time? It's hard to believe it was a small number.
What about adderal or ritalin?
Tanozolol, which Palmeiro tested positive for was comonly found in beef for years qnd still runs rampant in Mexico. He has never admitted to using and wasn't charged with perjury after testing positive because they couldn't prove that he maliciously took it.
I have no doubt he was a user, but I also believe there is definitely abusers in the hall.
That being said, its hard to blame any of the abusers for their actions. The window of opportunity they have to make money is so small. Of course there will be boundary pushers.

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Palmeiro tested positive some time after testifying so by itself it wouldn't have undermined his testimony, right?

The anti-steroid guys always argue amphetamines were different because they were not banned and because they didn't change the body (or variations on that theme).

[packs]

I'm not saying he's a HOFer but Wes Ferrell might get a second look in a post-Ohtani world. What he was able to do with the bat was pretty incredible too. He was a monster in 1935. Led the league in wins and hit 347 with 7 homers and a 960 OPS.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by SD

Just presumed steroid users like Piazza & Bagwell.

And at least a dozen more.

And there will be a confirmed one soon when David Ortiz goes in.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by SD

Just presumed steroid users like Piazza & Bagwell.
Didn't Caminiti claim that at least 50% of the league used anabolic steroids in 01?
Does cocaine help enhance one's performance? Raines & Jenkins admitted to openly using during games.
Ted Williams, Mike Schmidt & Chipper Jones admitted to using greenies before and during games. Mays reportedly took liquid amphetamines while with the Mets. Sounds fairly similar to McGwire's Andro use. Which wasnt banned at the time.
Selig banned Greenies in 05. So amphetamines, a known performance enhancer was commonly available in baseball since the end of WW2. How many immortals where users during this time? It's hard to believe it was a small number.
What about adderal or ritalin?
Tanozolol, which Palmeiro tested positive for was comonly found in beef for years qnd still runs rampant in Mexico. He has never admitted to using and wasn't charged with perjury after testing positive because they couldn't prove that he maliciously took it.
I have no doubt he was a user, but I also believe there is definitely abusers in the hall.
That being said, its hard to blame any of the abusers for their actions. The window of opportunity they have to make money is so small. Of course there will be boundary pushers.

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Do you have any evidence that Piazza or Bagwell used steroids? Accusations without evidence are worthless.

Caminiti can claim whatever he wants, but without names and evidence, his claims aren't believable.

None of the rest are steroids and are irrelevant to my post. Also, using something allowed by MLB is not the same as using something banned.

[SD]

Originally Posted by rats60

Do you have any evidence that Piazza or Bagwell used steroids? Accusations without evidence are worthless.



Caminiti can claim whatever he wants, but without names and evidence, his claims aren't believable.



None of the rest are steroids and are irrelevant to my post. Also, using something allowed by MLB is not the same as using something banned.

Accusations are just that, until proven. But they usually have some truths. Below is actual admittance.

So, androstenedione, the same PED McGwire openly endorsed, was used by Piazza. He openly discussed using it in 2011 and 2013. His claim was Andro didn't do anthony for him. He wasn't hitting the ball any farther then he did previously so he stopped. But thats admission. Was Andro a banned substance yet, No. Was it a PED yes. McGwire has never been proven to take any steroids other then Andro which at the time was available everywhere. You could get andro500 at Walmart. So McGwire shouldn't have the steroid tag because he used it when it was banned?

http://www.metstoday.com/8374/12-13-...mits-peds-use/

Caminiti had demons but he had no known vendetta against baseball's fraternity like Canseco. He did name Bagwell, one of his closest friends, to Verducci as a user he knowingly ingested. He also named Luis Gonzalez, Mo Vaughn, Man Ram & Andy Pettite ( who admitted use). He defended players as well, saying Biggio, Gwynn and Hoffman had no desire. His claims that you are staying at irrelevant, opened the flood doors on the rampant use in MLB.

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/30/s...lubhouses.html

Canseco jumped on that narratives coattail to profitize for his book. That was obvious. Motives between the 2 players should be in question, that's why Cansecos integrity comes into play, but his credibility still remains. He was a known user that wanted all other users to go down on the sinking ship with him. Both have accused players who we now know took steroids positively. Maybe the forms weren't illegal yet because the technology wasnt presnt to make that informative desicision, much like many other substances that weren't banned for decades. Yes they used something allowed by baseball. But it doesn't mean they didnt use PEDs. McGwire is deserving to go in based n your argument, MLB didn't have it banned yet and McG said he stopped taking it once it was banned.

One can easily make the argument it's MLBs fault for not regulating substances/ PEDs fron the onset. If a player tests or gets caught taking/ doing anything not natural they get suspended. MLB has obviously turned a blind eye to the situation. It took cans outcries to make the situations relevant. Much like rosin and sunscreen. Something pitcher's and catchers have been encouraged to do for decades. But the public court of appeal demanded change. So MLB trys to act innocent and fix problems they basically encouraged.

You don't think MLB should have said something when Ted Williams, Jerry Coleman and other fighter pilots returned fromWW2 with the mighty power of greenies? It took MLB more then 50 years to ban them, a now known banned substance. And yes Amphetamines are drugs, PEDs, that affet ones performance, giving the user enhanced focus, and alertness.





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[perezfan]

Originally Posted by SD

Does cocaine help enhance one's performance? Raines & Jenkins admitted to openly using during games.

Not sure if snorting coke helps enhance performance, but apparently using LSD helps you to throw a no-hitter!

As for Ortiz... I agree. When he gets in, it will blur the lines for all of those others currently sitting on the fence. Given enough time, I would bet Arod, McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield and maybe even Palmeiro will make their ways into the Hall.

Not saying that's what I want... I just think it's inevitable, as the current prevailing sentiment weakens and the decision-makers begin to pass away or age out.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Not sure if snorting coke helps enhance performance, but apparently using LSD helps you to throw a no-hitter!

As for Ortiz... I agree. When he gets in, it will blur the lines for all of those others currently sitting on the fence. Given enough time, I would bet Arod, McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield and maybe even Palmeiro will make their ways into the Hall.

Not saying that's what I want... I just think it's inevitable, as the current prevailing sentiment weakens and the decision-makers begin to pass away or age out.

If Ortiz was not someone people loved, I think we would see a different atmospheric surrounding his vote.

[SD]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Not sure if snorting coke helps enhance performance, but apparently using LSD helps you to throw a no-hitter!



As for Ortiz... I agree. When he gets in, it will blur the lines for all of those others currently sitting on the fence. Given enough time, I would bet Arod, McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield and maybe even Palmeiro will make their ways into the Hall.



Not saying that's what I want... I just think it's inevitable, as the current prevailing sentiment weakens and the decision-makers begin to pass away or age out.

Not sure if you have ever dabbled in white lines or not to know how it affects you. But yes they drastically enhance ones energy, focus and awareness = PED.

This quote from Dan Naulty to George Mitchell in his report says it all:
"I was a full blown cheater and I knew it," Naulty said. "You didn't need a written rule. I was violating clear principals that were laid down within the rules. Whether they were explicitly stated that I shouldn't use speed or testosterone didn't need to be stated. I understood I was violating mainly implicit principals.
"I have no idea how many guys were using testosterone. But I would assume anybody that was had some sort of conviction that this was against the rules. Look, my fastball went from 87 to 96! There's got to be some sort of violation in that. It was not by natural cause. To say it wasn't cheating to me was . . . it's just a fallacy. There's just no way you could say that's not cheating. It was a total disadvantage to play clean."

Even if it wasn't banned at the time, players knew they where cheating.

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