Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

His totals fluctuated throughout his career. Some years as low as the 20s, back as far as the 1950s, many of course in the 40s. If you're suggesting Aaron's career arc suggests he used, you need a better analysis than that.

His career arc suggests that he would put up his best home run % at the age of 39?!!? In an era when players were basically never even good at that age?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

His career arc suggests that he would put up his best home run % at the age of 39?!!? In an era when players were basically never even good at that age?

You haven't analyzed his career you've juxtaposted two cherry picked seasons.

The age 34 season isn't really even relevant to the point you are now making.

[Peter_Spaeth]

At age 38 Jeter had his best season in several years. And?

[Ricky]

Originally Posted by Tabe

His career arc suggests that he would put up his best home run % at the age of 39?!!? In an era when players were basically never even good at that age?

As someone who watched Aaron closely in these years, there was no PED use that explained his home run arc. His minor fluctuations were throughout his entire career and he was extremely consistent. The 29 HRs in 1968 were in the year of the pitcher when everyone's totals were down. He put up 47 in 1971 in a home run friendly ballpark but hitting 44 or so was the norm for him. In 1973, Evans and Davey Johnson were kids, they weren't 40 years old. The bad information in this thread concerning Aaron is astounding.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Ricky

As someone who watched Aaron closely in these years, there was no PED use that explained his home run arc. His minor fluctuations were throughout his entire career and he was extremely consistent. The 29 HRs in 1968 were in the year of the pitcher when everyone's totals were down. He put up 47 in 1971 in a home run friendly ballpark but hitting 44 or so was the norm for him. In 1973, Evans and Davey Johnson were kids, they weren't 40 years old. The bad information in this thread concerning Aaron is astounding.

Johnson's season was a real aberration but tainting Aaron by association really seems a stretch.

[SD]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Johnson's season was a real aberration but tainting Aaron by association really seems a stretch.

Thank you for the correction.

I'm not suggesting Aaron used. Sorry if it came off that way. I do feel it would be ignorant to assume no player in the Hall ever cheated. Plenty have been speculated to have cheated.

Where their players using PEDs that never got caught? Absolutely.

Sent from my SM-A716U1 using Tapatalk

[packs]

I'm still shaky on this burden of proof that seems to exist for some people (David Ortiz / Jeff Bagwell / Mike Piazza) but not others. Roger Clemens didn't exactly get "caught" cheating but is there a question about whether he was? How about Barry Bonds? Do you need a deposition to know he cheated?

Why the wishy-washy attitude toward guys like Bagwell, Piazza, Ivan Rodriguez and David Ortiz? In my opinion it is quite obvious they all cheated the same way McGwire and Sosa did.

[Ricky]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm still shaky on this burden of proof that seems to exist for some people (David Ortiz / Jeff Bagwell / Mike Piazza) but not others. Roger Clemens didn't exactly get "caught" cheating but is there a question about whether he was? How about Barry Bonds? Do you need a deposition to know he cheated?

Why the wishy-washy attitude toward guys like Bagwell, Piazza, Ivan Rodriguez and David Ortiz? In my opinion it is quite obvious they all cheated the same way McGwire and Sosa did.

I don't think Ortiz is obvious the way McGwire, Bonds and Sosa were. Ortiz was never cut... even as a young player, he was a bit plump. And he still looks the same as he did when playing. McGwire, Sosa, Bonds.... they physically changed and if you look at McGwire now, he looks like he shrunk. Bonds' hat sizes increased two sizes. That's not normal. Did Ortiz' stats improve from his time in Minnesota as a young player? Yes, but how much of that was maturation as a player and being given a chance to play full-time? He apparently tested positive for something, but who knows what it was? There were a lot of substances were on the list but were meaningless... and his numbers continued to improve after that test and more stringent testing was put into place. Meanwhile BALCO swirled around McGwire, Bonds and Sosa... I forget the deal with Clemens but didn't someone report that he was sticking needles in his butt (I could be confusing that with someone else)?

[packs]

Originally Posted by Ricky

I don't think Ortiz is obvious the way McGwire, Bonds and Sosa were. Ortiz was never cut... even as a young player, he was a bit plump. And he still looks the same as he did when playing. McGwire, Sosa, Bonds.... they physically changed and if you look at McGwire now, he looks like he shrunk. Bonds' hat sizes increased two sizes. That's not normal. Did Ortiz' stats improve from his time in Minnesota as a young player? Yes, but how much of that was maturation as a player and being given a chance to play full-time? He apparently tested positive for something, but who knows what it was? There were a lot of substances were on the list but were meaningless... and his numbers continued to improve after that test and more stringent testing was put into place. Meanwhile BALCO swirled around McGwire, Bonds and Sosa... I forget the deal with Clemens but didn't someone report that he was sticking needles in his butt (I could be confusing that with someone else)?

Clemens' old trainer accused him of cheating but there was no "proof". So, why is he guilty because a guy said so but others aren't? Ortiz failed a test in 2003. He then later claimed that when he finds out why he failed the test, he'd share the information publicly. But he of course never did that. Timing seems suspicious though, doesn't it? In 2003 Ortiz was more or less nobody. In 2004 he makes his first All Star team. Hmmmm......

Ivan Rodriguez though, to me, is the most obvious case. All you have to do is look at a photo of him in his Texas prime and compare it to the little guy who ended up on the Yankees later on.

[benge610]

Originally Posted by Ricky

As someone who watched Aaron closely in these years, there was no PED use that explained his home run arc. His minor fluctuations were throughout his entire career and he was extremely consistent. The 29 HRs in 1968 were in the year of the pitcher when everyone's totals were down. He put up 47 in 1971 in a home run friendly ballpark but hitting 44 or so was the norm for him. In 1973, Evans and Davey Johnson were kids, they weren't 40 years old. The bad information in this thread concerning Aaron is astounding.

Thank you Ricky and Peter for standing up. Those who saw Aaron and knew a lick about the detail of hitting in MLB, appreciated him and why he stood up to the eye test. His career consistency, for me, answers all the stat-slanting of those who don't know.
Thank you.
Ben