Fraud in the hobby

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

But when you shake your fist at others and say constantly "how stupid are you guys to stay involved with this bullshit" . . . at the same time that you stay involved with it all . . . that's the part I struggle with . . .

Stop struggling. People are inherently assholes. Look at all the dickwads around you..... Flip, flop, pop. You try and tell them it's a billion dollar fraud (which we all know it is) and not only do you/they want to argue about it, you want to support the known criminals. I just have always found it fascinating.

It's no skin off of my ass but it does affect me like a festering boil somewhat. Itches and hurts for a while but then it pops. It's mostly funny as I watch America deteriorate. I could give 3 shits about it. Like others, if I can help 1 person not get scammed it's all worth it. Much like I felt about calling out autograph forgers and other losers trying to game the system. Just a bad gene pool a piss poor upbringing. I feel bad for the honest guy trying to make it of which there are many here including yourself. I have 10 lifelong friends I have beers with every 2 weeks. Many of us have our own business making 100's of thousands per year. Guess how many of the guys try and fuck other people? ZERO. Guess how many guys try and pick up the bill? All of them.

I love the way the cards look and what can be done to them. Please Forgive me if I just don't like people getting rich off of scamming others. I made my fortuney the old fashioned way with out fucking people and with integrity. I was taught to try and stand for something and to try and help others. I just try to enjoy the hobby I loved for 50 years. So don't struggle, really...I don't lose a minute of sleep and continue to enjoy what I have been blessed to collect over the years. While trying not to take it too far up the ass by the multi level shysters "investors" in the "Business". Good luck to you and enjoy!

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Stop struggling. People are inherently assholes. Look at all the dickwads around you..... Flip, flop, pop. You try and tell them it's a billion dollar fraud (which we all know it is) and not only do you/they want to argue about it, you want to support the known criminals. I just have always found it fascinating.

It's no skin off of my ass but it does affect me like a festering boil somewhat. Itches and hurts for a while but then it pops. It's mostly funny as I watch America deteriorate. I could give 3 shits about it. Like others, if I can help 1 person not get scammed it's all worth it. Much like I felt about calling out autograph forgers and other losers trying to game the system. Just a bad gene pool a piss poor upbringing. I feel bad for the honest guy trying to make it of which there are many here including yourself. I have 10 lifelong friends I have beers with every 2 weeks. Many of us have our own business making 100's of thousands per year. Guess how many of the guys try and fuck other people? ZERO. Guess how many guys try and pick up the bill? All of them.

I love the way the cards look and what can be done to them. Please Forgive me if I just don't like people getting rich off of scamming others. I made my fortuney the old fashioned way with out fucking people and with integrity. I was taught to try and stand for something and to try and help others. I just try to enjoy the hobby I loved for 50 years. So don't struggle, really...I don't lose a minute of sleep and continue to enjoy what I have been blessed to collect over the years. While trying not to take it too far up the ass by the multi level shysters "investors" in the "Business". Good luck to you and enjoy!

What he said.

[Casey2296]

I would also suggest that members here make a concerted effort to post interesting collecting stories that have nothing to do with the "business", after all, it is required as per Leon's rules of the sub if anybody bothered to read them.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I would also suggest that members here make a concerted effort to post interesting collecting stories that have nothing to do with the "business", after all, it is required as per Leon's rules of the sub if anybody bothered to read them.

We all make those posts in other threads, this thread is specifically talking about the "business". If you were looking for interesting stories, and based on your post it sounds like you are, you should have taken the title of this thread as a pretty clear hint that there weren't going to be any here, and clicked on a different thread.

Here's an interesting card for you, which has plenty of interesting stories attached to it, and most of them are about "fraud in the hobby".

Doug

[Casey2296]

This thread is talking about losing the joy of the hobby because of the "business" of the hobby. While the business is an important aspect of the hobby I would posit that one less divisive thread about politics and one more thread about acquiring that card or finishing that set and the journey along the way would reinforce the joy of the hobby for collectors here.

[ALBB]

what about the collector who " accidently " gets caught up in fraud ...

ex- the guy ( guys) who was fooled by these mighty grading services that " didnt do their job " and bought one of these high dollar vintage cards that was doctored ...paid thousands for a card that was later deemed trimmed ..but PSA slabbed it as - EX MT 7.

This guy now knows the card is bad

Maybe it sits in his collection for a while

sooner or later he will sell it ..maybe he breaks it out and try's to get it graded again.... maybe breaks it out and " plays dumb" and sells it raw....

bottom line is he knows the card is bad...but he wants to recoup his money

With all the cards that have been uncovered as doctored in the past...I believe this scenario will happen ( or has happened) many times

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by ALBB

what about the collector who " accidently " gets caught up in fraud ...

ex- the guy ( guys) who was fooled by these mighty grading services that " didnt do their job " and bought one of these high dollar vintage cards that was doctored ...paid thousands for a card that was later deemed trimmed ..but PSA slabbed it as - EX MT 7.

This guy now knows the card is bad

Maybe it sits in his collection for a while

sooner or later he will sell it ..maybe he breaks it out and try's to get it graded again.... maybe breaks it out and " plays dumb" and sells it raw....

bottom line is he knows the card is bad...but he wants to recoup his money

With all the cards that have been uncovered as doctored in the past...I believe this scenario will happen ( or has happened) many times

The problem is the cards altered or not are worth just as much if not more if they're in a holder. Sending it to a major auction house seems to work.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ALBB

what about the collector who " accidently " gets caught up in fraud ...

ex- the guy ( guys) who was fooled by these mighty grading services that " didnt do their job " and bought one of these high dollar vintage cards that was doctored ...paid thousands for a card that was later deemed trimmed ..but PSA slabbed it as - EX MT 7.

This guy now knows the card is bad

Maybe it sits in his collection for a while

sooner or later he will sell it ..maybe he breaks it out and try's to get it graded again.... maybe breaks it out and " plays dumb" and sells it raw....

bottom line is he knows the card is bad...but he wants to recoup his money

With all the cards that have been uncovered as doctored in the past...I believe this scenario will happen ( or has happened) many times

It happens every single day.

From what I have seen it goes something like this.

1) Sell it and don't worry because that slab says it is a PSA 7 so it is a PSA 7.
2) Sell it and don't say anything because as the seller getting your cash back is #1.
3) Sell with full disclosure knowing no one will care anyway because the flip rules.
4) Send to PSA to get the grade confirmed. Then sell in the same slab because PSA confirmed their opinion.
5) Eat the loss, LOL I know it likely will never happen but someday it might.
6) PSA honors its guarantee.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Many of us have our own business making 100's of thousands per year. Guess how many of the guys try and fuck other people? ZERO. Guess how many guys try and pick up the bill? All of them.

That's very real.

I went to a hydraulics convention, mostly to get a certification as they were doing the class/testing there.

Boss sent me with a company card saying "be responsible with it, but buy a round or two"
Sat at a table with 10 guys, more than half of them company owners or executives at a large company. First round comes, 11 cards hit the table.
The guy who was a VP of a big company picked them all up, handed his to the waitress and stacked the others. I think in order by company size and whether the person was an owner.
Looked at me and asked if it was my first time with a company card.
"yes"
"Ok, then this means something to you"
And he put mine on top of the stack for the next round.

That was the only time they let me buy the round all week, except for one time when it was all employees at the table.

Great bunch of people, and we just happened to have a common industry and not much more.

[egri]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's very real.

I went to a hydraulics convention, mostly to get a certification as they were doing the class/testing there.

Boss sent me with a company card saying "be responsible with it, but buy a round or two"
Sat at a table with 10 guys, more than half of them company owners or executives at a large company. First round comes, 11 cards hit the table.
The guy who was a VP of a big company picked them all up, handed his to the waitress and stacked the others. I think in order by company size and whether the person was an owner.
Looked at me and asked if it was my first time with a company card.
"yes"
"Ok, then this means something to you"
And he put mine on top of the stack for the next round.

That was the only time they let me buy the round all week, except for one time when it was all employees at the table.

Great bunch of people, and we just happened to have a common industry and not much more.

Right after I commissioned, I went out to lunch at the O-Club with a CDR and a retired CAPT who are both family friends. When the bill came, the three of us took out our cards. The other two pushed mine out of the way, and the Captain looked at me and asked "Do you know how many times I touched the bill as an Ensign? Never.", and the Commander nodded in agreement.

[Seven]

On the subject of fraud:

I try to not allow it to affect my enjoyment or the connections I have made with other collectors. While they're have certainly been times where I have been effected by it, at the end of the day the good in my opinion outweighs the bad. I love talking cardboard with people that are truly interested in the hobby. While it is a little unfortunate that in recent times the business aspect has been getting more coverage, it just is what it is. The people that are strictly in this for the money will come and go while the people that collect and trade for enjoyment will stay.

As things get more popular, and valuable, the chances of fraud always increase. Art, photography, etc have been things brought up by previous posters. It's why I try to be as diligent as possible when buying cards, doing my research, posting here, or purchasing from sellers I explicitly trust.

I've only thankfully had one negative experience with fraud, and it wasn't even mine directly. I recieved a Jordan Rookie, years back from my father, I don't know how much he paid for it, but it was holdered by SGC. Turns out after some research and posting on here, the card ended up being fake. The original slab was cracked, a fake was inserted and then the slab was resealed. It's unfortunate, because it was a gift, and I could never bring myself to tell my father, something he spent his hard earned money on, for me, turned out being something that wasn't real, because he was fooled by some shady conman. Despite the card being fake, the emotion is still there, so are the memories of the gift itself. Those are genuine and real, so I take a little bit of solace in that.