Fraud in the hobby

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I believe the card doctors get a thrill over coning people.....this will never stop.

What's really galling is how some will con people who consider them friends. But this is the way of the criminal I suppose.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What's really galling is how some will con people who consider them friends. But this is the way of the criminal I suppose.

Agree ! It’s so slime ball ! I believe what goes around comes around, being honest and fair with people has always suited me well.

[Tao_Moko]

Bitching about fraudulent practices that impact your hobby shouldn't mean you have to leave it. What sense does that make? Those who expose it are doing a service to the hobby.

[dio]

There is fraud in wall street
Basically everything in this world there is fraud if there's money involve

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by dio

There is fraud in wall street
Basically everything in this world there is fraud if there's money involve

I agree. Just watched the documentary on WeWorks.

Guy was charged with an incredible fraud and walked away with a severance of $1.8 billion.

[rainier2004]

I dont know, we have all been worried about fraud since I started collecting 37 years ago. But the hobby has changed so much since then, its hard to compare times. I would bring up the possibility that TPGs have just increased fraud and not limited it in any way. And today is the same as 37 years ago, if you dont enjoy collecting whatever your focus is anymore you find something else...but eventually you rn out of things to shift to.

But TPGs have given a a false sense of security to collectors. People do not spend the time holding the cards and browsing thru them like we used to when shows were every weekend. You always bought beaters to educate yourself with, dip that toe into the water before taking the plunge. But these steps are skipped now with all the holders, same holders that prevent a "collector" from feeling a card, its thickness, texture and even smell. Now people drops 10's and 100's of thousands of dollars within months of entering.

The best way to defend yourself is still educating yourself. Blindly trusting a TPG with this much money just seems odd to me. And no, they arent the best at grading and detecting worked cards. People that have sat at home with their loupes, scan a card at 1200 dpi, handled 100s of the issue are just as good if not better. I handled 2-3000 CJs thru the years, I dont need a TPG to tell me what to look for.

But if the worry of fraud becomes to much then its just time to go and that sucks...but we should still be educating ourselves. If you dont know reach out to a member, super easy way to make a hobby buddy and very rarely has that person not responded to me. Its just part of it, a fun part of IMO.

[68Hawk]

I kind of understand where the heart of this question comes from....
If all of this place we share and talk about the hobby is 'stunk' with talk of fraud and wrongdoing, much of the pleasure is stolen.

The question is, does the endless dissecting of the problems do anything other than share misery and reduce joy in what should be a fun/pleasant distraction from Life's more serious requirements?

If the hobby set up a 'complaints corner', with a couple true expert and motivated hobby cops versed in law and available to give free of their time to the pursuit, where discovery of fraud was brought and was left in the hands of those same to execute whatever was really feasible, perhaps we could then shift more focus to the cards and what they mean to us??

I mean, what gets talked about here doesn't really do anything, right?
For real action, the knowledge needs to be acted upon.
Here it's really just kvetching.

I can understand why the OP and others might get tired of it, and why it's a downer to their hobby time. It's not because they don't know of the serious issues, or don't want to know, but because of the 'end of the earth' laments that trail each posting and thread on the topic.
And also because the idea of extending further questioning of ALL cards and condition regardless of accuracy of thought, so that only those precious few who think their sanctified collecting of lower grade cards can be true and honest, is plain tiresome.
For all the messed with nice condition cards, I as a hobbyist am sure there are innumerable 'right' cards that are beautiful and high end simply because they were put away at the time of collecting.

And yet now ALL these nice cards I"m being told are fake nice.
The leap from wrongdoing on one level to wrongdoing everywhere is just debilitating to any real joy in collecting, much as the OP is wondering.

[G1911]

I collect in a way to avoid the fraud, drama, and garbage that comes with any hobby in which peoples financial stakes are such that ethics are easily shoved aside. The prevalent fraud is more annoying than personally affecting. In 20 years I've yet to be scammed. I'm sure it will happen one day.

I buy low grade. There's not a graded card or sharp corner in sight. Heck, there's not even a plastic sleeve in sight at all most of the time.

I don't buy mega expensive cards that if it turns out it's altered and suddenly worthless, I just lost the downpayment on a house. Every penny spent is treated as money lost, beer money without the liver damage.

I focus on rarities, cards and master sets I like that scammers are generally not targeting, or for which the scams are blatantly obvious. I have as much fun outside of Baseball as in it.

I trade with fellow collectors who think alike and am friends with outside the cards alone whenever possible. Swapping $10 of cards back and forth whenever we can help each other isn't liable to produce fraud.

I operate with the philosophy that if it doesn't make sense, don't buy it. Cards from 1910 shouldn't be NM-MT condition. Legitimate signed cards of players who died before autographed card collecting was popular exist in tiny, tiny numbers. For every card undersized and unaltered there should be a roughly equal number of oversized ones.

I have a great time researching my tobacco sets, putting together the mysteries and unknowns, check listing master sets, the minutia that altering doesn't affect and doesn't even cost a cent.

No one is altering fair grade T42's, making copies of T220's, trimming 1971 Topps cards in Good with a crease. And if they are, since I don't care about condition and just enjoy the images and building sets, it doesn't really matter to me. If it turns out my t206 common with 18 creases was trimmed, oh well. I hate the fraud, but I have a grand time with the hobby. I'm not going to make money, but I have a good time and good friends in the hobby. that's enough. If you avoid the areas of the hobby that are dominated by scammers and for which it can be reasonably expected that that will be prevalent (which would you focus on if you were an unethical scammer, $20,000 cards or $2 ones?), it's as much fun as it has ever been, in some ways better than ever.

[glchen]

Since I am back to the hobby in 2010, there has been fraud in the hobby. Whether it's shill bidding, counterfeits, etc, it's been everywhere. I think it's still really important to know what's going on and trying to educate yourself as much as possible, so that you can make the best decisions on what to buy and whether what you are buying is the item that you are expecting it to be. You can still enjoy the hobby with all that going. Frankly for me, I'm more discouraged by the crazy prices going on than the fraud. The fraud I can try to avoid, but the prices is more difficult. It's like when I was a kid when I couldn't afford a lot of stuff that I wanted to buy.

Originally Posted by dio

There is fraud in wall street
Basically everything in this world there is fraud if there's money involve

Yep, just watch American Greed. A whole TV series built on stories of fraud. Bill Mastro was on one episode. It's a shame we have so much an annual TV series can be made from the stories.

[Johnny630]

Does anyone really think the card doctors/fraudsters could, yet alone be charged but be found guilty by a jury of their peers ?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Does anyone really think the card doctors/fraudsters could, yet alone be charged but be found quality by a jury of their piers ?

.

[packs]

Pier review

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

..be found quality by a jury...

Sadly, yes. The card doctors have been found to be "quality" by many.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Sadly, yes. The card doctors have been found to be "quality" by many.

Man You Make a Couple Spelling mistakes and you get destroyed oh well I’m a easy target I suppose.

Hope y’all enjoyed the laughs at my disposal.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Wimberleycardcollector

Yep, just watch American Greed. A whole TV series built on stories of fraud. Bill Maestro was on one episode. It's a shame we have so much an annual TV series can be made from the stories.

Since we are in "spell check mode" it's actually Mastro, as opposed to the guy pictured below...

But agree with your point. John Rogers was also more recently featured on American Greed. Next year's episode should be quite interesting, with far too many potential candidates to speculate who'll be the "star". The frontrunners are Moser, Huigens and Orlando. But Forman, Heritage and the Phantom Cracker Jack Butcher might be primed for a late run.

Stay tuned!

[packs]

My issue with Maestro stems from an unsuccessful attempt at renting a house in Tuscany

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by packs

My issue with Maestro stems from an unsuccessful attempt at renting a house in Tuscany

Nice. My problem involved being forced to hold a note until it caused the roof of the opera hall to cave in, maiming me. There is video of the incident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4AOKEjbPgA

Originally Posted by Wimberleycardcollector

Yep, just watch American Greed. A whole TV series built on stories of fraud. Bill Mastro was on one episode. It's a shame we have so much an annual TV series can be made from the stories.

Corrected for those who find joy in pointing out other people's mistakes.

[jchcollins]

"Fraud" in the hobby has been around as long as there has been a hobby, I hate to tell you. It's just got a lot more light on it now because we have graders and dealers and auction houses who can stand to benefit tremendously more from the fraud, and the technology / scans / wherewithal to detect 1/16 of an inch or less of perfect trimming, recoloring, bleaching, soaking, what have you. We also perhaps more importantly have the technology to share and disseminate the details of this fraud en masse quickly. Is this bad? Sure. But did certain unscrupulous people also do similar, if much cruder card doctoring in 1968? 1975? 1982? 1990? Of course they did. It simply did not get a ton of light on it due to the way the hobby worked and communicated at the time. Even so, one could argue this was the impetus for the birth of professional grading. But I digress.

Bottom line, are you happy with your cards? Do you know enough about them to detect the red flags of what may be a basic doctoring job? Then don't buy those cards. I've been doing this for 35 years and most of the vintage (my main focus as a kid...) that I had then was beat up to begin with. I will admit to liking nice, properly slabbed midgrade cards, but if too many of those become ripe with suspicion over alteration, then it's no problem for me to go back to buying lower grade raw cards (for cheaper...) that I don't suspect of having been altered. Just speaking personally, it would take things getting a lot worse than they have been over the previous 3-5 years with the scandals for me to get that much more disgusted with the hobby to where I would consider leaving entirely. But each unto their own.

Originally Posted by jchcollins

"Fraud" in the hobby has been around as long as there has been a hobby, I hate to tell you. It's just got a lot more light on it now because we have graders and dealers and auction houses who can stand to benefit tremendously more from the fraud, and the technology / scans / wherewithall to detect 1/16 of an inch or less of perfect trimming, recoloring, bleaching, soaking, what have you. We also perhaps more importantly have the technology to share and disseminate the details of this fraud en masse quickly. Is this bad? Sure. Bud did certain unscrupulous people also do similar, if much cruder card doctoring in 1968? 1975? 1982? 1990? Of course they did. It simply did not get a ton of light on it due to the way the hobby worked and communicated at the time. Even so, one could argue this was the impetus for the birth of professional grading. But I digress.

Bottom line, are you happy with your cards? Do you know enough about them to detect the red flags of what may be a basic doctoring job? Then don't buy those cards. I've been doing this for 35 years and most of the vintage (my main focus as a kid...) that I had then was beat up to begin with. I will admit to liking nice, properly slabbed midgrade cards, but if too many of those become ripe with suspect over alteration, then it's no problem for me to go back to buying lower grade raw cards (for cheaper...) that I don't suspect of having been altered. Just speaking personally, it would take things getting a lot worse than they have been over the previous 3-5 years with the scandals for me to get that much more disgusted with the hobby to where I would consider leaving entirely. But each unto their own.

Well said. I don't stress over baseball card collecting. But then again it's a hobby for me and not tied to financial gains or retirement. It all started with my love of baseball and continues to be tied to that. I also don't let politics ruin my love for the game.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

"Fraud" in the hobby has been around as long as there has been a hobby, I hate to tell you. It's just got a lot more light on it now because we have graders and dealers and auction houses who can stand to benefit tremendously more from the fraud, and the technology / scans / wherewithal to detect 1/16 of an inch or less of perfect trimming, recoloring, bleaching, soaking, what have you. We also perhaps more importantly have the technology to share and disseminate the details of this fraud en masse quickly. Is this bad? Sure. But did certain unscrupulous people also do similar, if much cruder card doctoring in 1968? 1975? 1982? 1990? Of course they did. It simply did not get a ton of light on it due to the way the hobby worked and communicated at the time. Even so, one could argue this was the impetus for the birth of professional grading. But I digress.

Bottom line, are you happy with your cards? Do you know enough about them to detect the red flags of what may be a basic doctoring job? Then don't buy those cards. I've been doing this for 35 years and most of the vintage (my main focus as a kid...) that I had then was beat up to begin with. I will admit to liking nice, properly slabbed midgrade cards, but if too many of those become ripe with suspicion over alteration, then it's no problem for me to go back to buying lower grade raw cards (for cheaper...) that I don't suspect of having been altered. Just speaking personally, it would take things getting a lot worse than they have been over the previous 3-5 years with the scandals for me to get that much more disgusted with the hobby to where I would consider leaving entirely. But each unto their own.

Terrific post.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

Bitching about fraudulent practices that impact your hobby shouldn't mean you have to leave it. What sense does that make? Those who expose it are doing a service to the hobby.

But when you shake your fist at others and say constantly "how stupid are you guys to stay involved with this bullshit" . . . at the same time that you stay involved with it all . . . that's the part I struggle with . . .

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

But when you shake your fist at others and say constantly "how stupid are you guys to stay involved with this bullshit" . . . at the same time that you stay involved with it all . . . that's the part I struggle with . . .

Stop struggling. People are inherently assholes. Look at all the dickwads around you..... Flip, flop, pop. You try and tell them it's a billion dollar fraud (which we all know it is) and not only do you/they want to argue about it, you want to support the known criminals. I just have always found it fascinating.

It's no skin off of my ass but it does affect me like a festering boil somewhat. Itches and hurts for a while but then it pops. It's mostly funny as I watch America deteriorate. I could give 3 shits about it. Like others, if I can help 1 person not get scammed it's all worth it. Much like I felt about calling out autograph forgers and other losers trying to game the system. Just a bad gene pool a piss poor upbringing. I feel bad for the honest guy trying to make it of which there are many here including yourself. I have 10 lifelong friends I have beers with every 2 weeks. Many of us have our own business making 100's of thousands per year. Guess how many of the guys try and fuck other people? ZERO. Guess how many guys try and pick up the bill? All of them.

I love the way the cards look and what can be done to them. Please Forgive me if I just don't like people getting rich off of scamming others. I made my fortuney the old fashioned way with out fucking people and with integrity. I was taught to try and stand for something and to try and help others. I just try to enjoy the hobby I loved for 50 years. So don't struggle, really...I don't lose a minute of sleep and continue to enjoy what I have been blessed to collect over the years. While trying not to take it too far up the ass by the multi level shysters "investors" in the "Business". Good luck to you and enjoy!

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Stop struggling. People are inherently assholes. Look at all the dickwads around you..... Flip, flop, pop. You try and tell them it's a billion dollar fraud (which we all know it is) and not only do you/they want to argue about it, you want to support the known criminals. I just have always found it fascinating.

It's no skin off of my ass but it does affect me like a festering boil somewhat. Itches and hurts for a while but then it pops. It's mostly funny as I watch America deteriorate. I could give 3 shits about it. Like others, if I can help 1 person not get scammed it's all worth it. Much like I felt about calling out autograph forgers and other losers trying to game the system. Just a bad gene pool a piss poor upbringing. I feel bad for the honest guy trying to make it of which there are many here including yourself. I have 10 lifelong friends I have beers with every 2 weeks. Many of us have our own business making 100's of thousands per year. Guess how many of the guys try and fuck other people? ZERO. Guess how many guys try and pick up the bill? All of them.

I love the way the cards look and what can be done to them. Please Forgive me if I just don't like people getting rich off of scamming others. I made my fortuney the old fashioned way with out fucking people and with integrity. I was taught to try and stand for something and to try and help others. I just try to enjoy the hobby I loved for 50 years. So don't struggle, really...I don't lose a minute of sleep and continue to enjoy what I have been blessed to collect over the years. While trying not to take it too far up the ass by the multi level shysters "investors" in the "Business". Good luck to you and enjoy!

What he said.

[Casey2296]

I would also suggest that members here make a concerted effort to post interesting collecting stories that have nothing to do with the "business", after all, it is required as per Leon's rules of the sub if anybody bothered to read them.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I would also suggest that members here make a concerted effort to post interesting collecting stories that have nothing to do with the "business", after all, it is required as per Leon's rules of the sub if anybody bothered to read them.

We all make those posts in other threads, this thread is specifically talking about the "business". If you were looking for interesting stories, and based on your post it sounds like you are, you should have taken the title of this thread as a pretty clear hint that there weren't going to be any here, and clicked on a different thread.

Here's an interesting card for you, which has plenty of interesting stories attached to it, and most of them are about "fraud in the hobby".

Doug

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Many of us have our own business making 100's of thousands per year. Guess how many of the guys try and fuck other people? ZERO. Guess how many guys try and pick up the bill? All of them.

That's very real.

I went to a hydraulics convention, mostly to get a certification as they were doing the class/testing there.

Boss sent me with a company card saying "be responsible with it, but buy a round or two"
Sat at a table with 10 guys, more than half of them company owners or executives at a large company. First round comes, 11 cards hit the table.
The guy who was a VP of a big company picked them all up, handed his to the waitress and stacked the others. I think in order by company size and whether the person was an owner.
Looked at me and asked if it was my first time with a company card.
"yes"
"Ok, then this means something to you"
And he put mine on top of the stack for the next round.

That was the only time they let me buy the round all week, except for one time when it was all employees at the table.

Great bunch of people, and we just happened to have a common industry and not much more.

[egri]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's very real.

I went to a hydraulics convention, mostly to get a certification as they were doing the class/testing there.

Boss sent me with a company card saying "be responsible with it, but buy a round or two"
Sat at a table with 10 guys, more than half of them company owners or executives at a large company. First round comes, 11 cards hit the table.
The guy who was a VP of a big company picked them all up, handed his to the waitress and stacked the others. I think in order by company size and whether the person was an owner.
Looked at me and asked if it was my first time with a company card.
"yes"
"Ok, then this means something to you"
And he put mine on top of the stack for the next round.

That was the only time they let me buy the round all week, except for one time when it was all employees at the table.

Great bunch of people, and we just happened to have a common industry and not much more.

Right after I commissioned, I went out to lunch at the O-Club with a CDR and a retired CAPT who are both family friends. When the bill came, the three of us took out our cards. The other two pushed mine out of the way, and the Captain looked at me and asked "Do you know how many times I touched the bill as an Ensign? Never.", and the Commander nodded in agreement.

[Seven]

On the subject of fraud:

I try to not allow it to affect my enjoyment or the connections I have made with other collectors. While they're have certainly been times where I have been effected by it, at the end of the day the good in my opinion outweighs the bad. I love talking cardboard with people that are truly interested in the hobby. While it is a little unfortunate that in recent times the business aspect has been getting more coverage, it just is what it is. The people that are strictly in this for the money will come and go while the people that collect and trade for enjoyment will stay.

As things get more popular, and valuable, the chances of fraud always increase. Art, photography, etc have been things brought up by previous posters. It's why I try to be as diligent as possible when buying cards, doing my research, posting here, or purchasing from sellers I explicitly trust.

I've only thankfully had one negative experience with fraud, and it wasn't even mine directly. I recieved a Jordan Rookie, years back from my father, I don't know how much he paid for it, but it was holdered by SGC. Turns out after some research and posting on here, the card ended up being fake. The original slab was cracked, a fake was inserted and then the slab was resealed. It's unfortunate, because it was a gift, and I could never bring myself to tell my father, something he spent his hard earned money on, for me, turned out being something that wasn't real, because he was fooled by some shady conman. Despite the card being fake, the emotion is still there, so are the memories of the gift itself. Those are genuine and real, so I take a little bit of solace in that.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

But when you shake your fist at others and say constantly "how stupid are you guys to stay involved with this bullshit" . . . at the same time that you stay involved with it all . . . that's the part I struggle with . . .

I've had cards graded in the past, not many, but some of my nicer/better ones. Mostly because someday my kids or wife will probably sell them, and assuming the grading still gets respect, they'll do much better.
SGC only for ones I sent in. But I've also bought a handful of cards from other companies.

I saw some stuff a few years ago that made me really not want to continue send in cards in and support companies I didn't think were honest.

But recently, there's some stuff I'm considering selling, and the price difference is big enough to make a real difference to me. So maybe?
It's still hard, or I'd have already done it.

I have pretty much moved away from the grading aspect.

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

But when you shake your fist at others and say constantly "how stupid are you guys to stay involved with this bullshit" . . . at the same time that you stay involved with it all . . . that's the part I struggle with . . .

I hear you and don't disagree when it comes to supporting tpg's and auction houses found party to fraud. My collection suffers because I don't pay premiums for graded cards, or bid in most auctions(including many on ebay). Graded cards rarely make it 30 minutes in my possession before being busted. But, passion isn't normally accompanied by complacency. If my Marines and Sailors weren't bitching then something was wrong.