Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by aconte

I can't believe someone would work on a CJ graded a 5 or 8.5. That's having
confidence in your work and no respect for the grading company.

That's my first thought to. These cards were already high-end.

I'm always skeptical when one of these threads pop up. Mostly because I don't want to believe this is as pervasive as it is. Then I look at the evidence shown, and almost every time it's a no doubter.

It's a miracle any Cracker Jacks survived through the years in 4 or 5 condition. Let alone 8's, 9's, and 10's with pointy corners and snow white borders.

These cards simply didn't exist when I was doing card shows in the 80's.

Sure, there was plenty of trimming and re-coloring going on then by raw card sellers. Hell, I think re-colored 1971 Topps have been around since 1972, LOL! ......But it was almost always sloppy as sh*t, and easy to spot from a mile away.

Sad it's come to this. Those cards were beautiful already.

[Republicaninmass]

You build a better mouse trap, they build a better mouse.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

It's a miracle any Cracker Jacks survived through the years in 4 or 5 condition. Let alone 8's, 9's, and 10's with pointy corners and snow white borders.

These cards simply didn't exist when I was doing card shows in the 80's.

They don't exist now either. Not in their natural state, anyway.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by perezfan

They don't exist now either. Not in their natural state, anyway.

To be fair. They exist. They just happened to find the fountain of youth at some point between 1985 and 2021.

A little nip here.......a little tuck there..........presto, bingo, you're a Super Model now.

[D. Bergin]

I think it's only a matter of time before the skill that goes in "restoring" these cards, becomes an actual selling point in the resale market.

Too many high dollar collectors have waaaaaaaay too many of these cards in their collections for it to go any other way.

I mean, if we can sell NFT's to the general public..........why not "card art and restoration"?

"I turned my 5 into a 10", will be flouted openly among "market traders".......and likely sooner then most people think.

[Johnny630]

We are at a Point Where People Spending Big Money on these Cards in Auctions DO NOT CARE HOW MUCH WORK HAS BEEN DONE ON THE CARD AS LONG AS IT'S IN A PSA OR SGC HOLDER WITH A NUMERICAL GRADE, THAT"S ALL THAT MATTERS.

SADLY ZERO IS GOING TO CHANGE, OTHER THEN RECORD HIGH SALES.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I think it's only a matter of time before the skill that goes in "restoring" these cards, becomes an actual selling point in the resale market.

Too many high dollar collectors have waaaaaaaay too many of these cards in their collections for it to go any other way.

I mean, if we can sell NFT's to the general public..........why not "card art and restoration"?

"I turned my 5 into a 10", will be flouted openly among "market traders".......and likely sooner then most people think.

Pretty good hypothesis, and definitely a possibility. Not much difference between a virtual image and an enhanced one.

I suppose if it really goes that route, the TPGs will pretty much be rendered as useless and obsolete. The grade of "A" will be the same as "10". And in many cases, it already is!

[Tripredacus]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I think it's only a matter of time before the skill that goes in "restoring" these cards, becomes an actual selling point in the resale market.

I think it is already in existence. I do not remember if it was posted here or a different forum, but there are groups on facebook where card fixers get together to share advice on how to restore cards. Maybe it was here. I don't know if these groups go as far as being considered buyers clubs, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Especially if the grading companies continue to accept the restored cards and people are making money off of it.

But there will always be purists in cards that do not believe that anything should be altered or restored. Same as with anything. Such as for years we are always hearing about the purists of baseball hating on this rule or that rule or players flipping bats or celebrating. It is just part of life.

[Touch'EmAll]

We are at a crossroads in this hobby - stop buying the high end nice stuff, or go ahead buy it and beware. I am having trouble wanting to buy the lower than "EX 5" stuff as that has always been my bottom line, but then the higher stuff could be doctored, ugh. And with todays ultra high prices, do I dare go after higher stuff anyway? Do I just keep what I have in vintage sports, call it good, and dabble in 1977 Star Wars cards and new Pokemon and the like for the rest of my collecting life?

And then I am hearing about buyers opening boxes in the mail from sellers and claiming nothing inside - or so they say, and demanding refunds. ebay always sides with the buyer. Makes me scared to even sell stuff anymore.

[Johnny630]

At this Point the grading companies serve one purpose, to facilitate a higher sale...end of discussion that's all that matters.

[Casey2296]

I like my CJ's "dirty", 100+ year old cards just don't look right when graded a 9.
-

[bbnut]

Originally Posted by Tripredacus

But there will always be purists in cards that do not believe that anything should be altered or restored. Same as with anything. Such as for years we are always hearing about the purists of baseball hating on this rule or that rule or players flipping bats or celebrating. It is just part of life.

I remember when purists used to think that autographs on cards lowered values on the cards and PSA 10 might be only double the raw price. Doesn't seem that way anymore.

Things will change and evolve.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tripredacus

I think it is already in existence. I do not remember if it was posted here or a different forum, but there are groups on facebook where card fixers get together to share advice on how to restore cards. Maybe it was here. I don't know if these groups go as far as being considered buyers clubs, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Especially if the grading companies continue to accept the restored cards and people are making money off of it.

But there will always be purists in cards that do not believe that anything should be altered or restored. Same as with anything. Such as for years we are always hearing about the purists of baseball hating on this rule or that rule or players flipping bats or celebrating. It is just part of life.

It has nothing to do with purity. It has everything to do with fraud and nondisclosure. If it's so acceptable, why doesn't anyone disclose it? QED.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It has nothing to do with purity. It has everything to do with fraud and nondisclosure. If it's so acceptable, why doesn't anyone disclose it? QED.

Peter its systemic nothing is ever going to change

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Peter its systemic nothing is ever going to change

Right, nobody is going to come out and say I trimmed this card or removed creases or added color, which to me proves that all the talk about how it's acceptable in the hobby now is a crock.

If it was so acceptable there would be no need for deception.

[Tripredacus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right, nobody is going to come out and say I trimmed this card or removed creases or added color, which to me proves that all the talk about how it's acceptable in the hobby now is a crock.

If it was so acceptable there would be no need for deception.

Do you think that soaking also falls into this category? There are many posts on this forum about soaking, or how to safely remove a card that is in a scrapbook or glued to something.

Is there a difference in whether or not a person is doing these things with the intention of selling it later?

[perezfan]

"Peter its systemic nothing is ever going to change"


Then why even have grading? If an A is the same thing as a 10 (and it's deemed ok to transform any card into a 10), then where is the need for a TPG?

And why is the valuation of a card graded "10" any higher than the one graded "A"?

That logic would dictate that the prices realized should be about the same for each.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

"Peter its systemic nothing is ever going to change"


Then why even have grading? If an A is the same thing as a 10 (and it's deemed ok to transform any card into a 10), then where is the need for a TPG?

And why is the valuation of a card graded "10" any higher than the one graded "A"?

That logic would dictate that the prices realized should be about the same for each.

Sadly the only purpose TPA have is to make your cards worth more not to determine if your card is altered or not. It's their opinion that matter's when bringing the most money to cards, it's just the way it is, nothing is going to change.

[Misunderestimated]

One of the ones in the BODA thread is that someone tinkered with a $100,000K PSA 8 CJ Joe Jackson !!! and got an SGC 9/96 out of it.... What a tragedy (and what nerve).... I wonder if he cracked it... sharpened it and then resubmitted to PSA (without payoff) before settling for the SGC 96/9 (and a mere $26K profit)
The guy must have the steady hands of a Mohel* to even try this.


* The man who performs circumcisions in Jewish tradition.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

One of the ones in the BODA thread is that someone tinkered with a $100,000K PSA 8 CJ Joe Jackson !!! and got an SGC 9/96 out of it.... What a tragedy (and what nerve).... I wonder if he cracked it... sharpened it and then resubmitted to PSA (without payoff) before settling for the SGC 96/9 (and a mere $26K profit)
The guy must have the steady hands of a Mohel* to even try this.


* The man who performs circumcisions in Jewish tradition.

So will 'brissing' a card become a thing? They could put 'brissed' on the label. Would it be possible to attend a brit milah for cards?

[Tao_Moko]

Obvious nobody involved cares. These are not passable trim jobs. I've spent the last year buying higher end cards in lower grades because authentic/unaltered 5 or 6's are going to become the premium if this continues. No evidence to suggest that any end is near. FAT BORDERS or BUST!

[frankrizzo29]

My gut feel is that the new NFTs are going to ultimately replace cards, i.e new cards will not be released anymore, but NFTs will be released instead. This will ultimately mean no more new cards to trim, and it will greatly diminish the need for TPGs in the future. Unfortunately, we still have to deal with trimmed cards from the past.

I'm a vintage person, and I personally do not buy any card graded higher than a 4 or a 5. My rationale is really basic.....What was the highest graded Cobb in the Lucky 7 find? These cards supposedly were purchased and than stored in a bag all these years untouched, and the highest grade I believe was a 4.5. So I personally find it hard to believe that any card graded higher than a 5 or so from back than wasn't doctored to some degree.

[shagrotn77]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

That's my first thought to. These cards were already high-end.

I'm always skeptical when one of these threads pop up. Mostly because I don't want to believe this is as pervasive as it is. Then I look at the evidence shown, and almost every time it's a no doubter.

It's a miracle any Cracker Jacks survived through the years in 4 or 5 condition. Let alone 8's, 9's, and 10's with pointy corners and snow white borders.

These cards simply didn't exist when I was doing card shows in the 80's.

Sure, there was plenty of trimming and re-coloring going on then by raw card sellers. Hell, I think re-colored 1971 Topps have been around since 1972, LOL! ......But it was almost always sloppy as sh*t, and easy to spot from a mile away.

Sad it's come to this. Those cards were beautiful already.

This!!! I too was a regular at cards shows in the late 80s and early 90s and you NEVER saw high-grade vintage. I'm not blaming buyers, but it's kinda naive to think that a Cracker Jack card that's more than 100 years old could be in mint condition. Same with a T206 card that was packed in a tight little box with cigarettes. After all, protective holders didn't come out until, what, the 70s or 80s?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

I'm not blaming buyers, but it's kinda naive to think that a Cracker Jack card that's more than 100 years old could be in mint condition.

1 - Why not, it's their fault.

2 - Kinda? Hahahaha.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

This!!! I too was a regular at cards shows in the late 80s and early 90s and you NEVER saw high-grade vintage. I'm not blaming buyers, but it's kinda naive to think that a Cracker Jack card that's more than 100 years old could be in mint condition. Same with a T206 card that was packed in a tight little box with cigarettes. After all, protective holders didn't come out until, what, the 70s or 80s?

I get what you are saying, but 1915 Cracker Jacks were available as complete sets and custom albums were available. If a set was immediately put in an album, I assume that they could be soaked out. That scenario could yield some pristine cards.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

I get what you are saying, but 1915 Cracker Jacks were available as complete sets and custom albums were available. If a set was immediately put in an album, I assume that they could be soaked out. That scenario could yield some pristine cards.

15' cj's are in my opinion one of few vintage sets that are more likely to be found in high grade...due to these reasons you stated.

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

15' cj's are in my opinion one of few vintage sets that are more likely to be found in high grade...due to these reasons you stated.

The albums had corner hinges I believe? I saw one in person in the 80's. No need to soak, or just kept them in a box.

[bnorth]

The few of you who care really need to come around to the modern world. This is a great thing overall. We get these super high end white bordered Ty Cobb cards that didn't exist just a couple decades ago. Restoring cards is a great opportunity to make a LOT of cash with little to no education. The AHs get to make more more because of the higher prices on a PSA 8 that used to be a PSA 5.

As far as knowing the names, LOL seriously. When a longtime card doctor got called out on here for selling another member a altered card nobody said shit. People actually blamed PSA because of who the person was. If that isn't proof nobody cares nothing is.

Have a great day and remember it is all for the greater good of the hobby.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

While those of you who know me know where I stand on all this, and I have dealt - first hand - with altered cards in slabs as an auction. I will say in general on the topic of how many more NM tobacco cards there are now then there were in the 80's, that's a bit misleading.

EVERY collectible dealt with the explosion of availability of what were thought to be unicorns in the advent of ebay and internet sales in general. Things like decanters, glassware like Fenton, and even to a degree things like books, stamps and coins suddenly were easily available. If you had to go to shows, flea markets and garage sales to add to your collection you could go crazy trying to find something that, as it turns out, was just scarce locally for some reason (or no real reason at all) The same goes for cards in general and high grade cards specifically.

I started doing shows when I was 14 and I remember in 1986 buying my first Goudey cards because they were the oldest things I had ever seen. On the local show circuit I honestly don't remember seeing ANY tobacco cards. I know I didn't buy my first T206's until Ebay came along.

Again do I think this explains even the majority of the high grade tobacco? No. But telling me something was scarce in the 1980's and easy to find now doesn't strike me as a great argument.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The few of you who care really need to come around to the modern world. This is a great thing overall. We get these super high end white bordered Ty Cobb cards that didn't exist just a couple decades ago. Restoring cards is a great opportunity to make a LOT of cash with little to no education. The AHs get to make more more because of the higher prices on a PSA 8 that used to be a PSA 5.

Some people buy old houses, fix them up, and resell them for a tidy profit. It's a win for everyone - someone gets to buy and live in a nice house, property values and aesthetic appeal increase in the neighborhood, tax revenues to the city go up on the higher value basis of the house, lots of tradesmen get paid to do the work, and material suppliers make money selling the stuff that goes into the renovation.

The house may still be marketed as "Early Victorian" or whatever, but it certainly isn't in original condition, and has been significantly altered and cleaned to improve its value.

I own a 1930 Model A Ford. Some people collect them in all original condition, others trick them up a bit. Mine for example is mostly original but has a custom made hardwood floor and some non-original parts. Car collectors can look at it and because of their expertise, they know what they are seeing.

I'm just wondering, having read a thousand or more mostly redundant complaints about card doctors, what is the point any more? Altered cards in this hobby are ubiquitous. Card doctors are apparently facing no adverse consequences. I see no lawsuits despite blowout's many, many examples.

I primarily collect game used flannels. Many otherwise nice shirts are out there with alterations. So, I do my homework, I've learned which AHs to trust and which to be very careful with, and which authenticators are good and which aren't (Dave Grob, incidentally, is hands-down my favorite.)

Rather than endless threads with people wringing their hands in angst over altered cards, at what point will it be universally understood that many many cards have been worked on, and that's simply become a major state of the hobby? If altered cards are a problem for someone, they have 3 choices: Learn how to avoid altered cards (knowing they cannot be sure all the time), stop collecting cards, or decide to live with the card hobby as it exists, and not stress about it.

Frankly, I think autographs are far more suspect than cards. With a vintage autograph, every single time, the first question is: Is it real? Generally there is not a definitive answer. Yet, many people collect autographs, accepting that dynamic. Seems to me, card collectors should likewise understand the same risk applies to cards.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

I get what you are saying, but 1915 Cracker Jacks were available as complete sets and custom albums were available. If a set was immediately put in an album, I assume that they could be soaked out. That scenario could yield some pristine cards.

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

The albums had corner hinges I believe? I saw one in person in the 80's. No need to soak, or just kept them in a box.

That's all well and good, but the fact is these cards are being trimmed on a wholesale scale...............so they literally did not exist in this "pristine" form in the 80's.

I wonder how many cards have actually been trimmed multiple times.

I see the term "crack & resubmit" thrown around on a regular basis.

Unfortunately "crack & trim & resubmit", has become the norm...........and probably has been for much longer then we care to admit.

Card doctors have been trimming cards since PSA came into existence........................I take it back...........they've been trimming cards since cards came into existence...........but they got really good at it, once PSA gave them a huge financial incentive, to get really good at it.