Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It has nothing to do with purity. It has everything to do with fraud and nondisclosure. If it's so acceptable, why doesn't anyone disclose it? QED.

Peter its systemic nothing is ever going to change

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Peter its systemic nothing is ever going to change

Right, nobody is going to come out and say I trimmed this card or removed creases or added color, which to me proves that all the talk about how it's acceptable in the hobby now is a crock.

If it was so acceptable there would be no need for deception.

[Tripredacus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right, nobody is going to come out and say I trimmed this card or removed creases or added color, which to me proves that all the talk about how it's acceptable in the hobby now is a crock.

If it was so acceptable there would be no need for deception.

Do you think that soaking also falls into this category? There are many posts on this forum about soaking, or how to safely remove a card that is in a scrapbook or glued to something.

Is there a difference in whether or not a person is doing these things with the intention of selling it later?

[Johnny630]

I know nobody Cares But another CJ Joe Jackson was discovered on Blowout the other day from a 4 SGC to a 7 SGC...


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1460488

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I know nobody Cares But another CJ Joe Jackson was discovered on Blowout the other day from a 4 SGC to a 7 SGC...


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1460488

The list keeps growing.

Yawn.

I guess Mr. Calderon, who clearly knows how to post here (see below), isn't going to this time.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=calderon

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The list keeps growing.

Yawn.

I guess Mr. Calderon, who clearly knows how to post here (see below), isn't going to this time.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=calderon

I will post on his behalf...

We had all the cards reviewed by SGC and they feel they are graded accurately.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I will post on his behalf...

We had all the cards reviewed by SGC and they feel they are graded accurately.

LOL.
Oh wait, maybe it's not so funny.
This hobby is a cluster fork.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The list keeps growing.

Yawn.

I guess Mr. Calderon, who clearly knows how to post here (see below), isn't going to this time.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=calderon

It appears that Heritage gets a free pass with a lot of people. If this same thread was about pwcc the post count would be in the hundreds.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Pat R

It appears that Heritage gets a free pass with a lot of people. If this same thread was about pwcc the post count would be in the hundreds.

I don't know Pat, my impression is that people aren't even interested in PWCC any more. Hardly a word about their move to hiding bidder IDs, for example. Or about the complete lack of impact all the Blowout revelations have had on them.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Tripredacus

Do you think that soaking also falls into this category? There are many posts on this forum about soaking, or how to safely remove a card that is in a scrapbook or glued to something.

Is there a difference in whether or not a person is doing these things with the intention of selling it later?

Soaking is a somewhat contentious issue.
Given time, most old scrapbooks will damage the cards.

My wife and I are currently working on soaking a scrapbook of tradecards. A hobby where at least the pricing is similar to where baseball cards were 40 years ago. The pages made the cards brittle, and some have taken pretty serious damage.

There's always a fine line between preservation/conservation and altering.

That's also true in other hobbies.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tripredacus

Do you think that soaking also falls into this category? There are many posts on this forum about soaking, or how to safely remove a card that is in a scrapbook or glued to something.

Is there a difference in whether or not a person is doing these things with the intention of selling it later?

Soaking is part of a long hobby tradition, and is the only way vast amounts of material stuck in scrapbooks could have been made available. And to the best of my knowledge it typically causes no harm.

[perezfan]

"Peter its systemic nothing is ever going to change"


Then why even have grading? If an A is the same thing as a 10 (and it's deemed ok to transform any card into a 10), then where is the need for a TPG?

And why is the valuation of a card graded "10" any higher than the one graded "A"?

That logic would dictate that the prices realized should be about the same for each.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

"Peter its systemic nothing is ever going to change"


Then why even have grading? If an A is the same thing as a 10 (and it's deemed ok to transform any card into a 10), then where is the need for a TPG?

And why is the valuation of a card graded "10" any higher than the one graded "A"?

That logic would dictate that the prices realized should be about the same for each.

Sadly the only purpose TPA have is to make your cards worth more not to determine if your card is altered or not. It's their opinion that matter's when bringing the most money to cards, it's just the way it is, nothing is going to change.

[Misunderestimated]

One of the ones in the BODA thread is that someone tinkered with a $100,000K PSA 8 CJ Joe Jackson !!! and got an SGC 9/96 out of it.... What a tragedy (and what nerve).... I wonder if he cracked it... sharpened it and then resubmitted to PSA (without payoff) before settling for the SGC 96/9 (and a mere $26K profit)
The guy must have the steady hands of a Mohel* to even try this.


* The man who performs circumcisions in Jewish tradition.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

One of the ones in the BODA thread is that someone tinkered with a $100,000K PSA 8 CJ Joe Jackson !!! and got an SGC 9/96 out of it.... What a tragedy (and what nerve).... I wonder if he cracked it... sharpened it and then resubmitted to PSA (without payoff) before settling for the SGC 96/9 (and a mere $26K profit)
The guy must have the steady hands of a Mohel* to even try this.


* The man who performs circumcisions in Jewish tradition.

So will 'brissing' a card become a thing? They could put 'brissed' on the label. Would it be possible to attend a brit milah for cards?

[Tao_Moko]

Obvious nobody involved cares. These are not passable trim jobs. I've spent the last year buying higher end cards in lower grades because authentic/unaltered 5 or 6's are going to become the premium if this continues. No evidence to suggest that any end is near. FAT BORDERS or BUST!

[frankrizzo29]

My gut feel is that the new NFTs are going to ultimately replace cards, i.e new cards will not be released anymore, but NFTs will be released instead. This will ultimately mean no more new cards to trim, and it will greatly diminish the need for TPGs in the future. Unfortunately, we still have to deal with trimmed cards from the past.

I'm a vintage person, and I personally do not buy any card graded higher than a 4 or a 5. My rationale is really basic.....What was the highest graded Cobb in the Lucky 7 find? These cards supposedly were purchased and than stored in a bag all these years untouched, and the highest grade I believe was a 4.5. So I personally find it hard to believe that any card graded higher than a 5 or so from back than wasn't doctored to some degree.

[doug.goodman]

I love this stuff, too bad that the back up at the opinion sellers is so long. Did one of them double their rates to cut down on submissions? Good for them, same money for half the work, I need to double my own salary in my next tour budget.

Hahahaha, you graded guys all deserve what you get.

The opinion sellers are laughing at you all on their way to the bank.

Doug "correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the first paid opinion wrong?" Goodman

[Pack The Ripper]

Originally Posted by frankrizzo29

My gut feel is that the new NFTs are going to ultimately replace cards, i.e new cards will not be released anymore, but NFTs will be released instead. This will ultimately mean no more new cards to trim, and it will greatly diminish the need for TPGs in the future. Unfortunately, we still have to deal with trimmed cards from the past.

I'm a vintage person, and I personally do not buy any card graded higher than a 4 or a 5. My rationale is really basic.....What was the highest graded Cobb in the Lucky 7 find? These cards supposedly were purchased and than stored in a bag all these years untouched, and the highest grade I believe was a 4.5. So I personally find it hard to believe that any card graded higher than a 5 or so from back than wasn't doctored to some degree.

Your post is spot on. I always try to buy the best card of whatever I'm buying. Seems that the best cards are probably just raw.

I just find it incredible that a supposed professional grading company could, in this day and age, receive ANY prewar card with super sharp corners for grading and not immediately suspect trimming.

[benjulmag]

I suspect the great majority of these altered card are altered by methods that CAN be scientifically detected. Assuming this is the case, then it seems inevitable to me that it is just a matter of time before a TPG emerges that grades cards scientifically. By that I mean that besides the usual subjective assessment of aesthetic appearance, there will be a scientific component that uses certain objective scientific criteria (e.g., presence of foreign dyes, chemical differences between newly trimmed borders and borders that have been exposed to the environment for over 100 years) that will make the conclusion the card has been altered a scientific fact, as opposed to a mere opinion. Once we get to that stage, I simply don't see how a card that has been shown by that method to be altered can hold its value.

It wouldn't surprise me if someone is out there now working on just such a model. True it will take millions in startup capital to build such a startup, which capital will include the need to to buy slabbed high condition cards and expose them to be altered. And true it will take a market willingness to pay the hefty grading fees such a startup would need to charge in order to be profitable. But inasmuch as we are already well into 7-figure territory for desirable sports cards, what is spending an additional 4 or 5-figure cost to ensure the card is what it is represented to be? The economic impact of that to the purchaser would be the equivalent of the BP being raised by less than one point.

And here might be the kicker. If, as has been speculated, much of the recent price rise is being fueled by funds regarding sport cards as investment vehicles and marketing them as such, then I would think in time such funds will put themselves at risk of violating their fiduciary obligation to their clients if they do not require that their sport card acquisitions be vetted by such a high tech grading method.

As to the point that there will be insufficient demand for such a high-tech grading service since what creates the demand for sports cards is the number on the slab (as opposed to the "real" condition of the card), that may be the case now. But I do not see how that mentality will be able to sustain the market once such a new TPG enters the scene and enough currently slabbed cards are shown to be altered.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I suspect the great majority of these altered card are altered by methods that CAN be scientifically detected. Assuming this is the case, then it seems inevitable to me that it is just a matter of time before a TPG emerges that grades cards scientifically. By that I mean that besides the usual subjective assessment of aesthetic appearance, there will be a scientific component that uses certain objective scientific criteria (e.g., presence of foreign dyes, chemical differences between newly trimmed borders and borders that have been exposed to the environment for over 100 years) that will make the conclusion the card has been altered a scientific fact, as opposed to a mere opinion. Once we get to that stage, I simply don't see how a card that has been shown by that method to be altered can hold its value.

It wouldn't surprise me if someone is out there now working on just such a model. True it will take millions in startup capital to build such a startup, which capital will include the need to to buy slabbed high condition cards and expose them to be altered. And true it will take a market willingness to pay the hefty grading fees such a startup would need to charge in order to be profitable. But inasmuch as we are already well into 7-figure territory for desirable sports cards, what is spending an additional 4 or 5-figure cost to ensure the card is what it is represented to be? The economic impact of that to the purchaser would be the equivalent of the BP being raised by less than one point.

And here might be the kicker. If, as has been speculated, much of the recent price rise is being fueled by funds regarding sport cards as investment vehicles and marketing them as such, then I would think in time such funds will put themselves at risk of violating their fiduciary obligation to their clients if they do not require that their sport card acquisitions be vetted by such a high tech grading method.

As to the point that there will be insufficient demand for such a high-tech grading service since what creates the demand for sports cards is the number on the slab (as opposed to the "real" condition of the card), that may be the case now. But I do not see how that mentality will be able to sustain the market once such a new TPG enters the scene and enough currently slabbed cards are shown to be altered.

That's an interesting take on things.

I'm not sure what the state of the art is for coins , but they seem to have tightened up a lot on things that were common, like nearly 100% of shiny silver coins being technically cleaned.

With Stamps, the major expertizing groups have added grading, which is almost entirely based on centering.
I've met a couple people who do expertizing, and the depth of knowledge is amazing. But they also tend to only work in a fairly narrow field, like US between 1873 and 1890. Not that they don;t know a LOT about all the other areas, and even about many foreign stamps, but their primary area they get paid to work with is just that. (Some may work more generally, most of the information applies across many areas)

The first step for them is "is it a genuine stamp" followed by "which exact stamp is it?" any major flaws will allow a certificate saying it's real, but with noted flaws but no grade. They take their time, and apparently do compare notes between three different expertizers.
Very little of that is done with scientific equipment, but there are groups working that way. They just don't do expertizing (although members might)
They also take their time.

I had a couple stamps looked at during a "what's my stamp worth" type event at the international show in 2006. The explaining how to tell what they were took him longer than the identifying, which took literally a few seconds.
(I like done, had doubts about the other, and was pretty pleased to be right about both )
I've also sent in a couple, and the companies take their time so they get it right. One was probably easy, as it was one of the ones I took to the international, the other was a new discovery of a major variety, and the first of its kind expertized. Unlike PSA, they are totally ok with things that aren't cataloged yet in fact, getting a certificate may be necessary to get it cataloged. I included a copy of an article describing the variety, which probably helped. I haven't bought a new catalog in years, so I don't know if it ever got listed, or if I'd have to push a bit for a listing. (I had another discovery that was picked up on by a second tier catalog and listed. )

It's certainly possible to detect pretty much any alteration. But it does require knowing something about the item, and actually looking. Something the graders appear to actively avoid.

[benjulmag]

Thanks for the response Steve. What you describe appears to be materially different from PSA's business model, which is based on volume. I agree that many alterations that get by are detectable without scientific means, if graders took the time and had the expertise in the myriad of different card issues to detect alterations. But they don't, and the fact that PSA is for the time being not accepting new submissions until they clear up the backlog hardly gives one confidence this business model will be changing anytime soon.

And that is why the grading market is wide open IMO for a new type of company, one that should it come into being I simply don't see how in time cannot make obsolete the current model of grading.