T206 REFERENCE....direct access to AMERICAN BEAUTY > > UZIT checklists

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I received an email from a Net54 "reader" (one who doesn't post) regarding my Powers and Schulte notations in the 150-only Series list.

This is the explanation of my theory regarding these two subjects......

Doc Powers....
American Litho (ALC) chose Powers (Plank's preferred battery mate) to replace Plank when ALC ceased printing Plank in their press runs.
Then when Powers passed away from an untimely death (April 1909), ALC removed him from their 150 Series printing plates.


Frank Schulte....
As far as I can tell, Schulte is strictly a 150-only subject. Yes, there exists one unique PIEDMONT 350 card of him; however, I consider it
a printing anomaly. If this subject is found with an EPDG back, then it could be considered an Elite 11 subject. But, until then (if ever), it
remains as a 150-only guy. So, why do I think Schulte replaced Honus Wagner ?
ALC's printing press was designed to print 12 cards across their printed sheet.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, the numbers don't support Schulte replacing Wagner. A high percent of Wagner's are SC150/25 and Schulte isn't one of the tougher subjects with that back which would be the
case if he replaced Wagner. For example HOF's Chance and Mordecai Brown portrait are tougher with a SC150/25 back than Schulte.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted, the numbers don't support Schulte replacing Wagner. A high percent of Wagner's are SC150/25 and Schulte isn't one of the tougher subjects with that back which would be the
case if he replaced Wagner. For example HOF's Chance and Mordecai Brown portrait are tougher with a SC150/25 back than Schulte.

I'm trying to understand your point here, Pat. However, I don't get why you are comparing SC 150/25 cards of Brown (portrait) and Chance (portrait) with Wagner.
Or a possible printing plate replacement of Wagner with Schulte. You are comparing 150/350 series subjects with 150-only series subjects, respectively.
This isn't a valid comparison. The 150-only series cards were short-printed relative to the 150/350 series cards.

Please elaborate further on this.

Thanks,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I'm trying to understand your point here, Pat. However, I don't get why you are comparing SC 150/25 cards of Brown (portrait) and Chance (portrait) with Wagner.
Or a possible printing plate replacement of Wagner with Schulte. You are comparing 150/350 series subjects with 150-only series subjects, respectively.
This isn't a valid comparison. The 150-only series cards were short-printed relative to the 150/350 series cards.

Please elaborate further on this.

Thanks,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

If Schulte replaced Wagner on a sheet that would mean he would have split the printing time on the sheets with Wagner so in comparing the SC150/25's
numbers Schulte's numbers should be lower than all the others including 150/350 subjects. I just used the Brown and Chance portraits as an example
because they are hall of famers and their numbers are lower much lower in fact for Brown.

If you want to compare 150 only subjects with SC150/25 backs here are their
numbers

Ames - 13
G. Brown - 12
M. Brown - 13
Burch - 15
Donlin - 9
Doyle - 16
Evers - 15
Pattee - 14
Pelty - 11
Powers - 8
Reulbach - 9
Schulte - 13

150/350

M. Brown portrait - 6
Cance red portrait - 10

We know Powers wasn't on the same Piedmont 150 sheet as the other
150 only subjects and he's the only SC649 subject in the group so he
most likely wasn't on any of the other sheets with them.

[tedzan]

Pat

Here's looking at the bigger picture of this series............ Powers and Schulte fit into this pattern very well.

150-only----HINDU----SOV----SC25----SC30----PD

Ames ------------ 7 ------ 12 ----- 13 ------ 33 ----- 118

G. Brown ------- 14 ------ 10 ----- 12 ------ 44 ----- 189

M. Brown -------- 8 ------ 15 ----- 13 ------ 51 ----- 269 HOF

Burch ------------ 8 ------ 17 ----- 15 ------ 27 ----- 163

Donlin ---------- 10 ------- 9 ------- 9 ------ 55 ----- 178

Doyle ----------- 13 ------- 8 ------ 16 ------ 27 ---- 155

Evers ----------- 11 ------ 10 ------ 15 ----- 47 ----- 222 HOF

Pattee ----------- 9 ------- 11 ----- 14 ------ 37 ----- 182

Pelty ------------- 8 ------- 11 ----- 11 ------ 38 ----- 173

Powers ---------- 9 -------- 11 ------ 8 ------ 23 ----- 181

Reulbach -------- 9 --------- 9 ------ 9 ------ 30 ----- 170

Schulte --------- 10 -------- 7 ----- 13 ------ 35 ----- 160


Footnote....the above numbers are from PSA pop report data.
Comparing this data with the SGC pop report data, the pattern
coincides very closely. The magnitude of the SGC numbers are
slightly lower.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Ted,

I'm not saying Schulte doesn't fit in with most of that group I just don't think he replaced Wagner.

Here's the plate scratch sheet they were all on with the exception of Wagner, Plank (I don't consider Plank a 150 only) and Powers.

0 Sheet 2A.jpg

and here's the sheet that powers is on

0 Sheet 1B.jpg

[tedzan]

Pat

With all due respect, I cannot accept your 2A sheet as being representative of the 150-only series cards.

Bell, Ferris, Isbell, and Tinker are included on it. These 4 subjects were printed during the 150/350 series press runs.

Sorry, but this sheet arrangement contradicts everything that has been established regarding the T206 Series structure.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

That's fine Ted you have a right to your opinion but the 150 only subjects
weren't printed at a different time than the 150/350 subjects they were just omitted at some point during the printing process for reasons we will never
know. Powers was printed with a group of 150/350 subjects the plate scratch
sheet shows that as does the SC150/649's.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted,

I'm not saying Schulte doesn't fit in with most of that group I just don't think he replaced Wagner.

Here's the plate scratch sheet they were all on with the exception of Wagner, Plank (I don't consider Plank a 150 only) and Powers.

The Gretzky Wagner and the Charlie Conlon Plank were hand cut from the same PIEDMONT 150 (Factory #25) sheet. This is an undeniable fact which tells us that Plank
was included in the print run of the first 12 subjects of the T206 set.

Like the Wagner card, ATC was forced to remove Plank from their initial 150 Series press runs. Subsequently, ATC issued Plank with SWEET CAP 350, Factory #30 backs.
Factory #30 produced tobacco products shipped to New York and the New England. Factory #25 tobacco products were shipped to Pennsylvania and the Southern states.
My guess is ATC wanted to continue issuing Plank (a very popular Pitcher), so they packed his card in Cigarette packs that were not meant for the Philadelphia market.

You can say what you want, but the Plank card is realistically a 150-only subject.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The Gretzky Wagner and the Charlie Conlon Plank were hand cut from the same PIEDMONT 150 (Factory #25) sheet. This is an undeniable fact which tells us that Plank
was included in the print run of the first 12 subjects of the T206 set.

Like the Wagner card, ATC was forced to remove Plank from their initial 150 Series press runs. Subsequently, ATC issued Plank with SWEET CAP 350, Factory #30 backs.
Factory #30 produced tobacco products shipped to New York and the New England. Factory #25 tobacco products were shipped to Pennsylvania and the Southern states.
My guess is ATC wanted to continue issuing Plank (a very popular Pitcher), so they packed his card in Cigarette packs that were not meant for the Philadelphia market.

You can say what you want, but the Plank card is realistically a 150-only subject.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

It has nothing to do with what I say, the definition of only and the
fact that Plank is on a 350 back is the reason he isn't a 150 only subject.