THE Hall of Fame this year and next:

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

The analogy still holds I think all the way to the fringes. I am sure you could list examples where it is arguable whether or not a card should be considered altered.

But the reality for Bonds and Clemens is the alteration was blatant and significant. PED use distorted their skills over several years and as a result most of the major awards they received are undeserved and their career numbers are fake.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Looking at his health and numbers I speculate that Clemens started juicing on his arrival in Toronto. I don't feel he was a HOF'er based on just his numbers in Boston. I realize that it's conjecture, but it's my fake vote.

Bonds was on a HOF track all along and was jealous of juicers so he became one. I just think of the numbers Griffey would've put up if he had done the same. In all likelihood his down times would've been shorter (McGwire basically juiced to stay on the field, yes it increased his power but he hit 49 Home runs as a clean rookie, he was a beast who just couldn't stay healthy until he juiced.) and his production would've been ridiculous as he was a better hitter than clean Bonds.

Bonds should be in, but I don't care when or if it happens.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Looking at his health and numbers I speculate that Clemens started juicing on his arrival in Toronto. I don't feel he was a HOF'er based on just his numbers in Boston. I realize that it's conjecture, but it's my fake vote.

Based on just the Boston years, Clemens probably just misses on longevity. At the time, he was 33 and coming off two so-so seasons. If instead of winning 4 Cy Young awards over the next 11 years, what if he'd had a "normal" decline phase...3-4 seasons at or just below the level of his prior two seasons (20-18, 3.83 ERA).

He was 192-111 with a 3.06 ERA in Boston. Add in two seasons like that, and he's 212-129 with an ERA around 3.20. Curt Schilling was 216-146 with an 3.46 ERA.

So, normal decline, I think Clemens is in...without, it's a "dominance without longevity" case for sure.