THE Hall of Fame this year and next:

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Never understood the pass Ortiz gets. I guess being lovable forgives a lot of sins.

Bud Selig, who's career was built on the backs of steroid users, is in.

Anybody who played in that era, before testing, and whose career numbers are worthy, should be in. Likewise for those players who never tested positive after testing was implemented.

I don't understand how people accept the double-standard with Selig in the Hall and Clemens and Bonds not being in.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

Bud Selig, who's career was built on the backs of steroid users, is in.

Anybody who played in that era, before testing, and whose career numbers are worthy, should be in. Likewise for those players who never tested positive after testing was implemented.

I don't understand how people accept the double-standard with Selig in the Hall and Clemens and Bonds not being in.

Easy. Two wrongs don't make a right. Should everyone with better stats than Harold Baines or Tommy McCarthy be elected to the HOF?

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by rats60

Easy. Two wrongs don't make a right. Should everyone with better stats than Harold Baines or Tommy McCarthy be elected to the HOF?

This is nothing about "two wrongs," this is about the criteria for enshrinement and a double standard for Selig vs. Bonds and Clemens. And I'm not sure how that can reasonably be a jumping off point to connect it to Baines or any other Hall of Famer who people think don't belong.

[riggs336]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

Bud Selig, who's career was built on the backs of steroid users, is in.

Anybody who played in that era, before testing, and whose career numbers are worthy, should be in. Likewise for those players who never tested positive after testing was implemented.

I don't understand how people accept the double-standard with Selig in the Hall and Clemens and Bonds not being in.

I totally agree. I was a Clemens fan and not a fan of Bonds, but both should be in the Hall based on their early careers at least.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by riggs336

I totally agree. I was a Clemens fan and not a fan of Bonds, but both should be in the Hall based on their early careers at least.

That's not a good argument. You want to say your Moser card should get a PSA 7 because that's what it was before it was doctored, but it doesn't work that way. Bonds and Clemens' careers were fraudulently altered, so they don't get a grade.

And Bud Selig needs to be booted from the Hall, that man is much more of a disgrace to the game than any player, because he knew what was going on with steroids and condoned it.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

That's not a good argument. You want to say your Moser card should get a PSA 7 because that's what it was before it was doctored, but it doesn't work that way. Bonds and Clemens' careers were fraudulently altered, so they don't get a grade.

And Bud Selig needs to be booted from the Hall, that man is much more of a disgrace to the game than any player, because he knew what was going on with steroids and condoned it.

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Suppose it was undisputed that Clemens didn't start until after he won his 300th game, or Bonds until after his 600th home run. Careers still altered? You see where the logic of this is going I assume

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Suppose it was undisputed that Clemens didn't start until after he won his 300th game, or Bonds until after his 600th home run. Careers still altered? You see where the logic of this is going I assume

The analogy still holds I think all the way to the fringes. I am sure you could list examples where it is arguable whether or not a card should be considered altered.

But the reality for Bonds and Clemens is the alteration was blatant and significant. PED use distorted their skills over several years and as a result most of the major awards they received are undeserved and their career numbers are fake.

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[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

The analogy still holds I think all the way to the fringes. I am sure you could list examples where it is arguable whether or not a card should be considered altered.

But the reality for Bonds and Clemens is the alteration was blatant and significant. PED use distorted their skills over several years and as a result most of the major awards they received are undeserved and their career numbers are fake.

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Looking at his health and numbers I speculate that Clemens started juicing on his arrival in Toronto. I don't feel he was a HOF'er based on just his numbers in Boston. I realize that it's conjecture, but it's my fake vote.

Bonds was on a HOF track all along and was jealous of juicers so he became one. I just think of the numbers Griffey would've put up if he had done the same. In all likelihood his down times would've been shorter (McGwire basically juiced to stay on the field, yes it increased his power but he hit 49 Home runs as a clean rookie, he was a beast who just couldn't stay healthy until he juiced.) and his production would've been ridiculous as he was a better hitter than clean Bonds.

Bonds should be in, but I don't care when or if it happens.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Looking at his health and numbers I speculate that Clemens started juicing on his arrival in Toronto. I don't feel he was a HOF'er based on just his numbers in Boston. I realize that it's conjecture, but it's my fake vote.

Based on just the Boston years, Clemens probably just misses on longevity. At the time, he was 33 and coming off two so-so seasons. If instead of winning 4 Cy Young awards over the next 11 years, what if he'd had a "normal" decline phase...3-4 seasons at or just below the level of his prior two seasons (20-18, 3.83 ERA).

He was 192-111 with a 3.06 ERA in Boston. Add in two seasons like that, and he's 212-129 with an ERA around 3.20. Curt Schilling was 216-146 with an 3.46 ERA.

So, normal decline, I think Clemens is in...without, it's a "dominance without longevity" case for sure.

[Redleg25]

The fact that Gil Hodges isn't in is a travesty

[Harliduck]

Originally Posted by Redleg25

The fact that Gil Hodges isn't in is a travesty

1000% agree. I simply don't understand. Total travesty...

Is anyone surprised by any of this? This day and age where people are completely cancelling out founders, leaders and people who accomplished great things for our country and people? People who by any standards were flawed and not perfect? People who lived during a time when social culture was different. The game is no different. People and players aren’t less perfect and never will be. The lines will just be drawn differently to allow some other imperfect people to reach their goals. This country used to be about equal opportunity based on your efforts. It’s becoming more about equal outcomes with less effort and a whole bunch of asterisks added at the end. In other words if you have it I should have it. If I can’t have it then either should you no matter how hard you worked for it at your job or on the field. I’m referring more to schilling here. All around not a perfect person but either we’re a lot of greats. His efforts on the field deserve recognition though.

[Seven]

The Hall is a Museum that honors baseball History. We try to make history as objective as possible. To not enshrine the players, that have accomplished some of the greatest feats in the game's history, aided or not by the use of PED's does not paint the whole picture.

The "Character and Integrity" Clause seems to only apply to certain players but not others. Put Bonds and Clemens in, Throw an asterisk on their plaque or put it in a wing for PED users, but they belong in the Hall of Fame, in my opinion.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Wimberleycardcollector

Is anyone surprised by any of this? This day and age where people are completely cancelling out founders, leaders and people who accomplished great things for our country and people? People who by any standards were flawed and not perfect? People who lived during a time when social culture was different. The game is no different. People and players aren’t less perfect and never will be. The lines will just be drawn differently to allow some other imperfect people to reach their goals. This country used to be about equal opportunity based on your efforts. It’s becoming more about equal outcomes with less effort and a whole bunch of asterisks added at the end. In other words if you have it I should have it. If I can’t have it then either should you no matter how hard you worked for it at your job or on the field. I’m referring more to schilling here. All around not a perfect person but either we’re a lot of greats. His efforts on the field deserve recognition though.

Well said. Let's start delving into the lives of the people who vote on the Hall and see what social impropriety they may have committed in their past and judge them accordingly. For that matter let's judge the judgers on their life history and punish them if we think they have done bad.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Redleg25

The fact that Gil Hodges isn't in is a travesty

I was watching the MLB Network announcement *TY Facebook as my cable system no longer carries MLB* and Gil Hodges is as of today, the ONLY person no longer on the ballot who has garnered 50 percent or more of the writers votes and not be inducted.

I think if he had lived a normal life span and managed another decade or so, he'd have been in around 1980.

Rich

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by Redleg25

The fact that Gil Hodges isn't in is a travesty

Have thought the same thing for many years - WTF - How is he not in?

What am I missing?

[Chris-Counts]

No new HOFers = another big fail for the Hall of Fame. I despise this country club mentality that keeps so many great players outside Cooperstown. There are a couple dozen guys that should have been in years ago. Once MLB put Selig in, the HOF shredded whatever credibility it had. Which shouldn't be too much of a surprise, since the entire concept of the Hall of Fame is based on the lie that Abner Doubleday invented baseball in Cooperstown. It was nothing but a real estate scheme, combined with an attempt to deny the debt baseball owned to older sports like cricket and rounders. It's as if baseball magically sprouted up in a cow pasture in upstate New York.

I agree Selig needs to get the boot. He was a disgrace to the game.

[campyfan39]

Gil Hodges and Curt Schilling should be in and no doubters IMO

I also agree with the poster who said Bud Selig should not be in.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

Bud Selig, who's career was built on the backs of steroid users, is in.

Anybody who played in that era, before testing, and whose career numbers are worthy, should be in. Likewise for those players who never tested positive after testing was implemented.

I don't understand how people accept the double-standard with Selig in the Hall and Clemens and Bonds not being in.

Well Selig doesn't belong, so I'm at least consistent! He did more damage to baseball than any modern executive.