Proper action for a stolen package from a Buy/Sell/Trade transaction

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

I’m just trying to help educate and explain how some states’ laws address this exact issue. It’s not semantics. There is a legal difference between a shipping contract and a delivery one.

Your the site’s ultimate arbiter. So, if you say the site’s rule is for the seller to reimburse the buyer then that is the rule. I’ve always personally followed this rule selling on here anyways (although thankfully all my items arrived), because it’s not worth the hassle and reputation damage fighting a buyer.

I’m pretty sure it has been proven in the courts that a “basic” online sale is a destination contract by definition.

Either way, if you pull that card, legal or not....you’re not someone I want to deal with.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by notfast

I’m pretty sure it has been proven in the courts that a “basic” online sale is a destination contract by definition.

Either way, if you pull that card, legal or not....you’re not someone I want to deal with.

Actually and we have discussed this several years ago,
Uniform Commercial Code, section 2-509. Unless there is a specific provision requiring the seller to deliver at a particular location (a so-called "destination contract"), risk of loss passes to the buyer when the seller delivers to the common carrier.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...hlight=carrier

But that said, who cares, people should do what's right.

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[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Actually and we have discussed this several years ago,
Uniform Commercial Code, section 2-509. Unless there is a specific provision requiring the seller to deliver at a particular location (a so-called "destination contract"), risk of loss passes to the buyer when the seller delivers to the common carrier.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...hlight=carrier

But that said, who cares, people should do what's right.

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Ebay sure doesn't go by that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Ebay sure doesn't go by that.

Correct. The Code only applies in a default situation. Parties can write their own contract.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Actually and we have discussed this several years ago,
Uniform Commercial Code, section 2-509. Unless there is a specific provision requiring the seller to deliver at a particular location (a so-called "destination contract"), risk of loss passes to the buyer when the seller delivers to the common carrier.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...hlight=carrier

But that said, who cares, people should do what's right.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does UCC apply to average Joe selling online? I thought it only applied to commercial businesses...

[Seven]

Originally Posted by notfast

Does UCC apply to average Joe selling online? I thought it only applied to commercial businesses...

Could it be argued that if you sell through Goods and Services that you qualify for UCC?

[RCMcKenzie]

Best of luck on your recovery, Brian.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Best of luck on your recovery, Brian.

Thank you, Rob.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is going to Boston lol. Now it will be stuck in Jersey City.

December 26, 2020, 10:56 am
Arrived at USPS Regional Origin Facility
JERSEY CITY NJ NETWORK DISTRIBUTION CENTER
Your item arrived at our JERSEY CITY NJ NETWORK DISTRIBUTION CENTER origin facility on December 26, 2020 at 10:56 am. The item is currently in transit to the destination.

December 12, 2020
In Transit to Next Facility

December 8, 2020, 4:15 pm
Departed Post Office
FERRISBURGH, VT 05456
December 8, 2020, 2:22 pm
USPS in possession of item
FERRISBURGH, VT 05456

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by notfast

Does UCC apply to average Joe selling online? I thought it only applied to commercial businesses...

I haven't thought about it in a long while but I believe that generally speaking, and of course individual states could modify it, it applies to all sales of goods. To be sure there are certain rules applicable to merchants.

[buymycards]

I have this package coming that contains 2 items that were won from an auction house.

Date Time Location Status
December 12, 2020 IN TRANSIT, ARRIVING LATE
December 8, 2020 16:16 LEHIGHTON,PA,18235 DEPARTED POST OFFICE
December 8, 2020 09:39 LEHIGHTON,PA,18235 USPS PICKED UP ITEM
December 8, 2020 05:22 NESQUEHONING,PA,18240 SHIPPING LABEL CREATED, USPS AWAITING ITEM

No movement since December 8th. The PO is inundated with packages and they currently have 19,000 employees who aren't working because of COVID. I think the OP needs to chill and give this a little more time.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by buymycards

I have this package coming that contains 2 items that were won from an auction house.

Date Time Location Status
December 12, 2020 IN TRANSIT, ARRIVING LATE
December 8, 2020 16:16 LEHIGHTON,PA,18235 DEPARTED POST OFFICE
December 8, 2020 09:39 LEHIGHTON,PA,18235 USPS PICKED UP ITEM
December 8, 2020 05:22 NESQUEHONING,PA,18240 SHIPPING LABEL CREATED, USPS AWAITING ITEM

No movement since December 8th. The PO is inundated with packages and they currently have 19,000 employees who aren't working because of COVID. I think the OP needs to chill and give this a little more time.

Thanks for your patience Rick. I have someone who has filed a Paypal claim against me who's on the same timeline as you.

[jayshum]

I have shipped several packages lately that have taken around 2 weeks for delivery, but so far, there haven't been any that have not been updated in more than a week which at least gave hope that they would eventually be delivered (a few are still out there so hopefully they will be as well). I appreciate the patience of the buyers with whom I have been in contact several times to let them know what the tracking is showing.

For the OP, there has been no update in a month now, and he was told by someone at the post office that the package was likely stolen along with some others. Of course, the seller was told it wasn't stolen so with everything going on with USPS right now, who knows what really happened.

As many others have said, this is what insurance is for. It protects the seller in case something happens in transit. You can get into semantics about if the the seller is responsible just for shipping or for actual delivery, but if I buy something from any company and my purchase is being shipped through the mail, if I never receive it, I will be calling them and expecting a refund as I'm sure everyone on this board would do. I don't see why the expectation would be any different when buying from a private individual unless it was specifically discussed as part of the purchase. If insurance was offered but turned down and the buyer was told they should then not expect a refund if something happened in shipping, that would clearly be different, but it doesn't sound like that is the case here.

[RL]

shipping is slow....priority package sent 120 miles away

December 26, 2020, 12:25 pm
Delivered, Front Door/Porch
FRANKLIN, MI 48025
Your item was delivered at the front door or porch at 12:25 pm on December 26, 2020 in FRANKLIN, MI 48025.
December 26, 2020, 6:41 am
Out for Delivery
FRANKLIN, MI 48025
December 26, 2020, 6:30 am
Arrived at Post Office
SOUTHFIELD, MI 48037
December 26, 2020, 4:47 am
Departed USPS Regional Facility
DETROIT MI NETWORK DISTRIBUTION CENTER
December 25, 2020, 7:23 pm
Arrived at USPS Regional Facility
DETROIT MI NETWORK DISTRIBUTION CENTER
December 3, 2020
In Transit to Next Facility
November 29, 2020, 1:28 am
Arrived at USPS Regional Origin Facility
GRAND RAPIDS MI DISTRIBUTION CENTER ANNEX
November 28, 2020, 11:00 am
USPS picked up item
WEIDMAN, MI 48893
November 28, 2020, 12:50 am
Shipping Label Created, USPS Awaiting Item
WEIDMAN, MI 48893

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by notfast

I’m pretty sure it has been proven in the courts that a “basic” online sale is a destination contract by definition.

Either way, if you pull that card, legal or not....you’re not someone I want to deal with.

This is inaccurate. The majority rule is courts generally find a shipping contract absent express language to the contrary. Thus, the default/presumption is for a shipping only contract - not a delivery one.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

This is inaccurate. The majority rule is courts generally find a shipping contract absent express language to the contrary. Thus, the default/presumption is for a shipping only contract - not a delivery one.

It could easily be argued that the default presumption on this forum is to guarantee safe delivery when otherwise not mentioned.

.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Leon

It could easily be argued that the default presumption on this forum is to guarantee safe delivery when otherwise not mentioned.

.

I don't agree with that. But that's just my interpretation/view.

Though you said "easily be argued that the default presumption," which is setting a commandment from Moses.

You are technically the boss and final word about board rules on this site, and I find your judgments to be fair and well-reasoned. And no rule will please everyone.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Leon

It could easily be argued that the default presumption on this forum is to guarantee safe delivery when otherwise not mentioned.

.

I certainly hope this is true. Any card I've ever shipped has either been insured or sent with the presumption that if it doesn't arrive it would be on me. I expect the same when I purchase one, although next time I will make sure to discuss and reach an agreement beforehand.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by Leon

It could easily be argued that the default presumption on this forum is to guarantee safe delivery when otherwise not mentioned.

.

I agree with this. Would it make sense to post a few rules, with this included, in the BST forums so that everyone is on the same page?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

I agree with this. Would it make sense to post a few rules, with this included, in the BST forums so that everyone is on the same page?

I don't mean to Jump Someone Else's Train, but this is a good idea. Having a well defined set of rules would be Just Like Heaven. It would reduce stress during those Inbetween Days when the package is in transit.

Let's make the rules crystal clear, so we can all be Lovecats.

[Casey2296]

Or, we could rely on a man's integrity and word, also patience, understanding, etiquette, and sense of fairness. Quite a refreshing concept in a world where too many rules allow a person to escape personal responsibility and "the right thing to do".

Plus, we'll all get together and "Mize" you if you screw a member over.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Or, we could rely on a man's integrity and word, also patience, understanding, etiquette, and sense of fairness. Quite a refreshing concept in a world where too many rules allow a person to escape personal responsibility and "the right thing to do".

Plus, we'll all get together and "Mize" you if you screw a member over.

Where in the world is there in the world a man so extraordinaire? C'est toi?

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Or, we could rely on a man's integrity and word, also patience, understanding, etiquette, and sense of fairness. Quite a refreshing concept in a world where too many rules allow a person to escape personal responsibility and "the right thing to do".

Plus, we'll all get together and "Mize" you if you screw a member over.

What personal responsibility is a seller exactly escaping? Most b/s/t posts simply state, “1933 John Doe $225.00 shipped F/F.” Let’s examine the parties’ obligations under this clear, plain language contract.

Buyer: The buyer has satisfied his performance under the contract once he has timely sent the payment. The risk of loss is still with the seller at this point.

Seller: The contract only states “shipped.” The seller is only responsible for placing the card into a third-party carrier’s hands, paying the shipping expense, and providing the seller the relevant information (i.e. the carrier’s identity, and tracking number). After this has occurred, both parties have satisfied their obligations under the contract. The contract is satisfied and over. The risk of loss has now transferred to the buyer.

The seller has no obligation to ride on the third-party carrier’s plane, shadow the delivery person, and personally watch the delivery person hand the card to the buyer. The seller, under my above hypothetical, has no obligation to provide a refund if the package is lost.

If a third-party carrier loses an item, why is the alleged “right thing to do” for the seller to incur the lose? What did the seller do wrong? He did everything the contract required!

He has no control over the third-party carrier’s personnel, equipment, security, etc. This is the reason why there is a huge difference between a shipping contract and a destination/delivery contract.

Most members will shout, “but the buyer is also innocent and did nothing wrong.” Although the buyer didn’t cause the package to become lost, he agreed to the shipping contract’s terms. The parties are entitled to the benefit of their bargain. A deal is a deal.

Ignorance of the law and how the contract’s terms and conditions, which the buyer voluntarily entered into, work is no excuse - especially if the result is the seller taking the loss when he satisfied the contract.

The buyer certainly has the ability to negotiate better terms and conditions. No one made the buyer agree to enter into a shipping contract. The buyer had the ability to negotiate a destination/delivery contract. He also had the ability to negotiate G/S. The buyer could’ve negotiated the seller to buy shipping insurance for him. The buyer did not.

So, who is trying to avoid personal responsibility - the seller who satisfied the term’s of the contract or the buyer who is now adding terms and conditions, and trying to rewrite it once an item is lost?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Or, we could rely on a man's integrity and word, also patience, understanding, etiquette, and sense of fairness. Quite a refreshing concept in a world where too many rules allow a person to escape personal responsibility and "the right thing to do".

Precisely. Gambling debts are not enforceable but a gentleman pays his gambling debts regardless. If we have to resort to legalities here then we lose the concept of community. From a community-based standpoint, if you as a seller request PPFF you are telling the buyer that getting the item to him is on you because you are asking him to throw away all of his protections. For that reason I always, always pay via paypal's commercial process for anything expensive, even if I have to add in the 3%, just so I never have to deal with this scenario. If I want a truly unprotected transaction I can send a check or pay via Zelle or PPFF, with the understanding that I may have to eat the loss if the item doesn't arrive through no fault of the seller and if the seller chooses not to be a gentleman about the loss.

Legally speaking, I think we have a situation of in pari delicto here: both sides are culpable and the courts might not grant either relief. They agreed to use an unprotected method to transmit the payment and the item was truly lost in the mail.

[JK]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I don't mean to Jump Someone Else's Train, but this is a good idea. Having a well defined set of rules would be Just Like Heaven. It would reduce stress during those Inbetween Days when the package is in transit.

Let's make the rules crystal clear, so we can all be Lovecats.

A defined set of rules would certainly Cure some of the issues being discussed in this thread (sorry, couldn't resist).

[drcy]

"$225 shipped"

Plain language reading would mean shipped to the destination. If the destination is Toledo, I don't think "shipped to Buenos Aires" or "shipped to my cousin's house" qualifies as shipped under the circumstance. Shipped is short for "shipped to ___.

If shipped doesn't mean "shipped to you," and instead means "shipped to you or anywhere else in the world," then the word has no practical meaning and there would be no need for shipping insurance.

Not to say it isn't a "life is unfair" scenario for the seller you gave the package to the USPS. Sucks for the seller, and, as already said, it can be a financial problem for some people to have to suddenly reimburse the money.

If the seller means/wants something else ("My responsibility is to get it in the mail. If the USPS loses it, that's not my responsibility" or "$225 put it in the mail"), that can be written in the sales description.