Proper action for a stolen package from a Buy/Sell/Trade transaction

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by Leon

I politely disagree on shipped vs delivered. To me they mean the same thing. I don't play the semantics games.

I’m just trying to help educate and explain how some states’ laws address this exact issue. It’s not semantics. There is a legal difference between a shipping contract and a delivery one.

Your the site’s ultimate arbiter. So, if you say the site’s rule is for the seller to reimburse the buyer then that is the rule. I’ve always personally followed this rule selling on here anyways (although thankfully all my items arrived), because it’s not worth the hassle and reputation damage fighting a buyer.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

I’m just trying to help educate and explain how some states’ laws address this exact issue. It’s not semantics. There is a legal difference between a shipping contract and a delivery one.

Your the site’s ultimate arbiter. So, if you say the site’s rule is for the seller to reimburse the buyer then that is the rule. I’ve always personally followed this rule selling on here anyways (although thankfully all my items arrived), because it’s not worth the hassle and reputation damage fighting a buyer.

What happens when the item turns up after a refund has been issued?? Is there a rule for that scenario as well?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

What happens when the item turns up after a refund has been issued?? Is there a rule for that scenario as well?

Obviously the buyer then must pay.

That actually happened to me after I had received a refund through ebay. The card showed up after three months lol.

[facingthelake1188]

Obviously, (or maybe not) I would reissue payment. As I told the seller in a recent pm:

“If it arrives, even if several months from now, I would certainly contact you and resubmit payment. At my age, almost 60, retired and collecting a pension, money is not an issue. Honesty and integrity mean too much to me to ever compromise myself over cash. I hope to continue being a productive member of the collecting community for years to come. I’ve had the pleasure of meeting and completing successful transactions with a bunch of members in my short time here. Please read the overwhelming opinions of members regarding the proper etiquette re: seller responsibilities. Then ask yourself, wouldn’t you expect the same if the situation were reversed? Thanks for listening and happy holidays!”

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Obviously the buyer then must pay.

That actually happened to me after I had received a refund through ebay. The card showed up after three months lol.

[Shoeless Moe]

No brainer at this point.

Seller must issue Refund ASAP. Today.

Seller need to go to the PO and make their claim.

Case closed.

[MGHPro]

I completely disagree with the seller must issue a refund today . Usps is beyond messed up . I had 2 packages from a seller in Kentucky shipped to me on nov 28. No scans at all , then they showed up last week. The package will show . Have patience . If I was the seller , I would not isssue a refund at this point but I would stay in contact with buyer .
Matt

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

No brainer at this point.

Probably not the best phrase to use in this particular case.

[insidethewrapper]

If it was stolen , I'd be checking ebay etc to see if the card you bought shows up there.

[Bcwcardz]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Probably not the best phrase to use in this particular case.

I thought the same. The gent had brain surgery on Wednesday December 2 and was posting cards for sale by Sunday December 6. That’s not a bad recovery time. I hope all is well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

I’m just trying to help educate and explain how some states’ laws address this exact issue. It’s not semantics. There is a legal difference between a shipping contract and a delivery one.

Your the site’s ultimate arbiter. So, if you say the site’s rule is for the seller to reimburse the buyer then that is the rule. I’ve always personally followed this rule selling on here anyways (although thankfully all my items arrived), because it’s not worth the hassle and reputation damage fighting a buyer.

I’m pretty sure it has been proven in the courts that a “basic” online sale is a destination contract by definition.

Either way, if you pull that card, legal or not....you’re not someone I want to deal with.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by notfast

I’m pretty sure it has been proven in the courts that a “basic” online sale is a destination contract by definition.

Either way, if you pull that card, legal or not....you’re not someone I want to deal with.

Actually and we have discussed this several years ago,
Uniform Commercial Code, section 2-509. Unless there is a specific provision requiring the seller to deliver at a particular location (a so-called "destination contract"), risk of loss passes to the buyer when the seller delivers to the common carrier.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...hlight=carrier

But that said, who cares, people should do what's right.

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[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Actually and we have discussed this several years ago,
Uniform Commercial Code, section 2-509. Unless there is a specific provision requiring the seller to deliver at a particular location (a so-called "destination contract"), risk of loss passes to the buyer when the seller delivers to the common carrier.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...hlight=carrier

But that said, who cares, people should do what's right.

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Ebay sure doesn't go by that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Ebay sure doesn't go by that.

Correct. The Code only applies in a default situation. Parties can write their own contract.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Actually and we have discussed this several years ago,
Uniform Commercial Code, section 2-509. Unless there is a specific provision requiring the seller to deliver at a particular location (a so-called "destination contract"), risk of loss passes to the buyer when the seller delivers to the common carrier.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...hlight=carrier

But that said, who cares, people should do what's right.

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Does UCC apply to average Joe selling online? I thought it only applied to commercial businesses...

[Seven]

Originally Posted by notfast

Does UCC apply to average Joe selling online? I thought it only applied to commercial businesses...

Could it be argued that if you sell through Goods and Services that you qualify for UCC?

[RCMcKenzie]

Best of luck on your recovery, Brian.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Best of luck on your recovery, Brian.

Thank you, Rob.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by notfast

Does UCC apply to average Joe selling online? I thought it only applied to commercial businesses...

I haven't thought about it in a long while but I believe that generally speaking, and of course individual states could modify it, it applies to all sales of goods. To be sure there are certain rules applicable to merchants.

[buymycards]

I have this package coming that contains 2 items that were won from an auction house.

Date Time Location Status
December 12, 2020 IN TRANSIT, ARRIVING LATE
December 8, 2020 16:16 LEHIGHTON,PA,18235 DEPARTED POST OFFICE
December 8, 2020 09:39 LEHIGHTON,PA,18235 USPS PICKED UP ITEM
December 8, 2020 05:22 NESQUEHONING,PA,18240 SHIPPING LABEL CREATED, USPS AWAITING ITEM

No movement since December 8th. The PO is inundated with packages and they currently have 19,000 employees who aren't working because of COVID. I think the OP needs to chill and give this a little more time.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by buymycards

I have this package coming that contains 2 items that were won from an auction house.

Date Time Location Status
December 12, 2020 IN TRANSIT, ARRIVING LATE
December 8, 2020 16:16 LEHIGHTON,PA,18235 DEPARTED POST OFFICE
December 8, 2020 09:39 LEHIGHTON,PA,18235 USPS PICKED UP ITEM
December 8, 2020 05:22 NESQUEHONING,PA,18240 SHIPPING LABEL CREATED, USPS AWAITING ITEM

No movement since December 8th. The PO is inundated with packages and they currently have 19,000 employees who aren't working because of COVID. I think the OP needs to chill and give this a little more time.

Thanks for your patience Rick. I have someone who has filed a Paypal claim against me who's on the same timeline as you.

[jayshum]

I have shipped several packages lately that have taken around 2 weeks for delivery, but so far, there haven't been any that have not been updated in more than a week which at least gave hope that they would eventually be delivered (a few are still out there so hopefully they will be as well). I appreciate the patience of the buyers with whom I have been in contact several times to let them know what the tracking is showing.

For the OP, there has been no update in a month now, and he was told by someone at the post office that the package was likely stolen along with some others. Of course, the seller was told it wasn't stolen so with everything going on with USPS right now, who knows what really happened.

As many others have said, this is what insurance is for. It protects the seller in case something happens in transit. You can get into semantics about if the the seller is responsible just for shipping or for actual delivery, but if I buy something from any company and my purchase is being shipped through the mail, if I never receive it, I will be calling them and expecting a refund as I'm sure everyone on this board would do. I don't see why the expectation would be any different when buying from a private individual unless it was specifically discussed as part of the purchase. If insurance was offered but turned down and the buyer was told they should then not expect a refund if something happened in shipping, that would clearly be different, but it doesn't sound like that is the case here.

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by notfast

I’m pretty sure it has been proven in the courts that a “basic” online sale is a destination contract by definition.

Either way, if you pull that card, legal or not....you’re not someone I want to deal with.

This is inaccurate. The majority rule is courts generally find a shipping contract absent express language to the contrary. Thus, the default/presumption is for a shipping only contract - not a delivery one.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

This is inaccurate. The majority rule is courts generally find a shipping contract absent express language to the contrary. Thus, the default/presumption is for a shipping only contract - not a delivery one.

It could easily be argued that the default presumption on this forum is to guarantee safe delivery when otherwise not mentioned.

.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Leon

It could easily be argued that the default presumption on this forum is to guarantee safe delivery when otherwise not mentioned.

.

I don't agree with that. But that's just my interpretation/view.

Though you said "easily be argued that the default presumption," which is setting a commandment from Moses.

You are technically the boss and final word about board rules on this site, and I find your judgments to be fair and well-reasoned. And no rule will please everyone.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Leon

It could easily be argued that the default presumption on this forum is to guarantee safe delivery when otherwise not mentioned.

.

I certainly hope this is true. Any card I've ever shipped has either been insured or sent with the presumption that if it doesn't arrive it would be on me. I expect the same when I purchase one, although next time I will make sure to discuss and reach an agreement beforehand.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by Leon

It could easily be argued that the default presumption on this forum is to guarantee safe delivery when otherwise not mentioned.

.

I agree with this. Would it make sense to post a few rules, with this included, in the BST forums so that everyone is on the same page?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

I agree with this. Would it make sense to post a few rules, with this included, in the BST forums so that everyone is on the same page?

I don't mean to Jump Someone Else's Train, but this is a good idea. Having a well defined set of rules would be Just Like Heaven. It would reduce stress during those Inbetween Days when the package is in transit.

Let's make the rules crystal clear, so we can all be Lovecats.

[Casey2296]

Or, we could rely on a man's integrity and word, also patience, understanding, etiquette, and sense of fairness. Quite a refreshing concept in a world where too many rules allow a person to escape personal responsibility and "the right thing to do".

Plus, we'll all get together and "Mize" you if you screw a member over.

[JK]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I don't mean to Jump Someone Else's Train, but this is a good idea. Having a well defined set of rules would be Just Like Heaven. It would reduce stress during those Inbetween Days when the package is in transit.

Let's make the rules crystal clear, so we can all be Lovecats.

A defined set of rules would certainly Cure some of the issues being discussed in this thread (sorry, couldn't resist).