1966 Topps High's - Any uncut sheets or partial sheets known?

[Kevvyg1026]

Although we do know which rows many cards are in, we do not know the specific row pattern used for the 1966 high number series. For ease of discussion, let me use the following notation: there are seven unique rows which I will label A through G.

Row A, headed by Northrup, is completely known and has cards (in order from L to R) 554, 568, 584, 581, 534, 558, 573, 536, 529, 572, 574

Row B, headed by Perranowski, has cards (L to R) 555, 562, 559, 564, 561 plus six more, as yet unknown.

Row C, headed by Hoerner rookie, has cards (L to R) 544, 565, 547, 546, 525, plus 6 more as yet unknown.

Row D, headed by Taylor, has cards (L to R) 585, 530, 560, 571, 542 plus 6 more as yet unknown.

Row E, headed by Salmon, has cards (L to R) 594, 535, 575, 580, 550, 538, 579, 537, plus 3 more as yet unknown.

Row F, headed by Mantilla, is completely known, and has cards (L to R) 557, 588, 545, 526, 589, 593, 563, 578, 548, 524, 539

Row G, headed by Shirley/Jackson rookie, has cards (L to R) 591, 540, 567, 527, 577, 596, 551, 543, plus 3 more as yet unknown.

We know that at some point within the two half sheets:
1. rows A, B, C, D, and E are in that order.
2. rows A, F, and G are in that order
3. row E is above row A at some point
4. cards 597, 592, and 549 are in the same row
5. card 533 is in column 6 and must be in either row B, C, or D and whichever row that card is located, must be above A at some point
6. card 583 is in same row (to the left of) 569, and is above the row containing card 523.
7. card 598 appears to be above card 595 and 552 is in same row as 532 (532 is left of 552)
8. card 517 is most likely at the end of a row.
9. row G is above either row B or D at some point (based on miscut 591. can't tell if color is grayish or faded red).


My guess, and it is only a guess, is that one half-sheet contains the pattern: A, B, C, D, E, A, F, G, B, C, D, E. This pattern handles items 1-3 above, plus 9 (if G is above B as I suspect). It is also the same pattern Topps used for one half-sheet in 1965 (both series 5 & 7), as well as 1967 (series 7) and 1969 (series 6).

The second half-sheet pattern must somehow incorporate 533 (meaning that row has to touch row A somewhere). Hope this helps.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Although we do know which rows many cards are in, we do not know the specific row pattern used for the 1966 high number series. For ease of discussion, let me use the following notation: there are seven unique rows which I will label A through G.

Row A, headed by Northrup, is completely known and has cards (in order from L to R) 554, 568, 584, 581, 534, 558, 573, 536, 529, 572, 574

Row B, headed by Perranowski, has cards (L to R) 555, 562, 559, 564, 561 plus six more, as yet unknown.

Row C, headed by Hoerner rookie, has cards (L to R) 544, 565, 547, 546, 525, plus 6 more as yet unknown.

Row D, headed by Taylor, has cards (L to R) 585, 530, 560, 571, 542 plus 6 more as yet unknown.

Row E, headed by Salmon, has cards (L to R) 594, 535, 575, 580, 550, 538, 579, 537, plus 3 more as yet unknown.

Row F, headed by Mantilla, is completely known, and has cards (L to R) 557, 588, 545, 526, 589, 593, 563, 578, 548, 524, 539

Row G, headed by Shirley/Jackson rookie, has cards (L to R) 591, 540, 567, 527, 577, 596, 551, 543, plus 3 more as yet unknown.

We know that at some point within the two half sheets:
1. rows A, B, C, D, and E are in that order.
2. rows A, F, and G are in that order
3. row E is above row A at some point
4. cards 597, 592, and 549 are in the same row
5. card 533 is in column 6 and must be in either row B, C, or D and whichever row that card is located, must be above A at some point
6. card 583 is in same row (to the left of) 569, and is above the row containing card 523.
7. card 598 appears to be above card 595 and 552 is in same row as 532 (532 is left of 552)
8. card 517 is most likely at the end of a row.
9. row G is above either row B or D at some point (based on miscut 591. can't tell if color is grayish or faded red).


My guess, and it is only a guess, is that one half-sheet contains the pattern: A, B, C, D, E, A, F, G, B, C, D, E. This pattern handles items 1-3 above, plus 9 (if G is above B as I suspect). It is also the same pattern Topps used for one half-sheet in 1965 (both series 5 & 7), as well as 1967 (series 7) and 1969 (series 6).

The second half-sheet pattern must somehow incorporate 533 (meaning that row has to touch row A somewhere). Hope this helps.

Does your information so far fit with the hobby's belief of 43 (44 counting the checklist) SPs appearing on the same rows and 33 DPs on the same rows? If so, would this lead to a belief that SPs were printed 3 times on the 2 sheets and DPs 4 times?

[bb66]

That will look great JollyElm. Great visual impact for sure.Thanks

[G1911]

Originally Posted by rats60

Does your information so far fit with the hobby's belief of 43 (44 counting the checklist) SPs appearing on the same rows and 33 DPs on the same rows? If so, would this lead to a belief that SPs were printed 3 times on the 2 sheets and DPs 4 times?

What we have seen from the partial sheets and misfits does not really indicate 44 SP’a, and some of the specific alleged “SP’s” have been pretty clearly debunked, like McCovey and Williams. I would guess there are two slightly SP’d rows on a full sheet, but we can’t definitively prove any total number yet.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by G1911

What we have seen from the partial sheets and misfits does not really indicate 44 SP’a, and some of the specific alleged “SP’s” have been pretty clearly debunked, like McCovey and Williams. I would guess there are two slightly SP’d rows on a full sheet, but we can’t definitively prove any total number yet.

The math has to work out. 44 x 3 + 33 x 4 = 264. There has to be at least 3 SP rows B with Coleman, C with Hoerner and G with Jackson. If there are only 33 SPs then one of the rows, probably G would only be printed twice. If we can place #583 and #598 it would help a lot. A and D are clearly DP rows meaning that Northrup and 571 Roberts are DPs not SPs. I would tend to agree that E with Williams and McCovey is a DP row. I never felt that they were that tough. That would only leave F as an unknown row. This information shows that there are errors in the hobby's list of SPs for 1966 high numbers.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by rats60

The math has to work out. 44 x 3 + 33 x 4 = 264. There has to be at least 3 SP rows B with Coleman, C with Hoerner and G with Jackson. If there are only 33 SPs then one of the rows, probably G would only be printed twice. If we can place #583 and #598 it would help a lot. A and D are clearly DP rows meaning that Northrup and 571 Roberts are DPs not SPs. I would tend to agree that E with Williams and McCovey is a DP row. I never felt that they were that tough. That would only leave F as an unknown row. This information shows that there are errors in the hobby's list of SPs for 1966 high numbers.

44x3 and 33x4 is not the only way to reach 264. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we have a situation like in 1967 with a possible 2x row. We don't have the evidence to make conclusions on how many times a row appeared at all yet, so it's just conjecture. Will be interesting to see if we can actually recreate a full sheet from this method. We can say the traditional SP list is debunked, but that's about all. We need more top/down miscuts to start working on the columns better while we hunt for the missing row cut clues.

[JollyElm]

Here's a reimagining of the images from post #20 (with additional information gleaned from other posts)...

Layout6.jpg

If anyone has groups of numbers, columns, rows, etc., you wanna see realized, shoot me the specific numbers and how they're situated.

Technical note: the images are small, because there are size constraints involved when uploading them directly from my computer. As this effort moves forward, I can always upload them to flickr and have them displayed hugely here.

Edited to add: I took some of the info posted by Kevvyg1026 to extend the rows outward.

[JollyElm]

And another...

Attachment 409012

Edited to add: I took some of the info posted by Kevvyg1026 to extend the rows outward.

[Kevvyg1026]

The McCovey 4 card strip shown in layout 6 is adjacent to the B Williams card shown in layout 1. Card 561 (Choo Choo) can be placed next to Bob Chance, also shown in layout 1.