Everyone's favorite auction house

[Steve D]

The thing is, with that tin sign, I suppose you could do the same thing by just putting it outside during a hard rainstorm, letting the rain clean it off.

Steve

[drcy]

The tin sign is a different situation than a card. Apples to oranges. Graded trading cards are a unique genre, where they are professionally graded and entombed, and minuscule differences in condition (idiotically) greatly affect value. The whole area of graded grading cards has separated itself from other collectibles (and sometimes common sense). The whole recent scandal these days with trading cards is alterations undetected by graders and not being reflected in the label's grade. Tin signs aren't professionally graded and entombed, and obviously, this one hasn't been, so there's no 'cognitive dischord' between the sign and the grade on the label (as there is no label) . . . It's no minor detail that LOTG's text is specified for trading cards,and the tin sign would better be compared to a raw card.

The cleaning of the tin sign has been disclosed and that answers that . . . As a side issue, I don't believe removing grime and dirt from a tine sign is detrimental. In fact, some would say the opposite. Though I don't know what exactly was done. Though, as I just said, disclosure is important.

I don't know how the alteration of the card was included (or not) in the grade-- perhaps it was . . . I don't know, and admit I'm not up to date with the details of grading, but do know that erasure marks and pencil marks are often part of the grade. So no opinion at the moment on that card . . . . . . Though the quoted rule should have noted that it's about alterations that are not reflected in the grade.

[timn1]

Thank you for clarifying the situation with actual knowledge.

Tim

Ps. Am I am the only one getting really weary of all the self appointed moral arbiters hovering around every hobby event?

Tim

Originally Posted by drcy

The tin sign is a different situation than a card. Apples to oranges. Graded trading cards are a unique genre, where they are professionally graded and entombed, and minuscule differences in condition (idiotically) greatly affect value. The whole area of graded grading cards has separated itself from other collectibles (and sometimes common sense). The whole recent scandal these days with trading cards is alterations undetected by graders and not being reflected in the label's grade. Tin signs aren't professionally graded and entombed, and obviously, this one hasn't been, so there's no 'cognitive dischord' between the sign and the grade on the label (as there is no label) . . . It's no minor detail that LOTG's text is specified for trading cards,and the tin sign would better be compared to a raw card.

The cleaning of the tin sign has been disclosed and that answers that . . . As a side issue, I don't believe removing grime and dirt from a tine sign is detrimental. In fact, some would say the opposite. Though I don't know what exactly was done. Though, as I just said, disclosure is important.

I don't know how the alteration of the card was included (or not) in the grade-- perhaps it was . . . I don't know, and admit I'm not up to do date with the details of grading, but do know that erasure marks and pencil marks are often part of the grade. So no opinion at the moment on that card . . . . . . Though quoted rule should have noted that it's about alterations that are not reflected in the grade.

[bmcnutt]

There was more than "cotton balls & water" used to clean that sign!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bmcnutt

There was more than "cotton balls & water" used to clean that sign!

That could easily be all it was.

I've cleaned up lots of old metal stuff, and if it's just accumulated dirt from the air it comes off easy.
Heck, I have a whole garagefull of stuff that probably needs a bit of that right now.

[Al C.risafulli]

Hi Jesse:

Allow me to address your concerns.

1) I spoke with the Reach sign consignor on Thursday night and was advised the sign had been cleaned with distilled water. Given the sign is a non-porous, tin sign, I do not consider that to be any more an alteration than, say, cleaning ashes out of the ashtray in Lot 98 (which was probably also done at some point). Despite this, on Friday I reached out to every bidder on the lot by phone, explained the situation, and gave each the opportunity to cancel their bids. None took me up on the offer. After I had spoken with each bidder, I added the notation to the description so that any potential new bidder could also see it. With an hour to go in extended bidding, there have been, thus far, no new bidders.

2) The E95 Cobb issue was pointed out to me overnight last night. This morning I inspected the card, and decided that the appropriate course of action in this case was to send out an errata email to all the bidders on the card, advise them of the situation, and give each of them the opportunity to cancel their bids. One did. I also wrote an addendum to the description to alert additional potential bidders.

Your attempt to draw ANY correlation between my behavior and fraudulent, illegal activity on the part of other companies is exactly what it sounds like.

Warm regards,
-Al

[pokerplyr80]

So why do you think it's debatable that an attempt to remove a stain was done deceptively? And why is that even relevant to whether or not you adhere to your own policy?

I haven't accused any one of fraudulent activity, and don't believe there is necessarily anything wrong with some of the outed cards that have simply been cleaned up a little.

But it does seem disingenuous in my opinion to put out a statement saying if you discover a card in your auction has been altered you will pull it immediately, only to leave one that has been up in your next auction.

[Republicaninmass]

I'm sad all those signed cards have JSA stickers on the back. They're ruined its archaic. Maybe they can be removed by soaking

[CobbSpikedMe]

I think trying to compare LOTG fully disclosing these issues to all bidders immediately (basically) and offering all of them an opportunity to pull their bids to what PWCC has been doing for years is laughable. It's not even in the same hemisphere let alone ballpark. So waiting for some major scandalous reaction is pointless here.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

I think trying to compare LOTG fully disclosing these issues to all bidders immediately (basically) and offering all of them an opportunity to pull their bids to what PWCC has been doing for years is laughable. It's not even in the same hemisphere let alone ballpark. So waiting for some major scandalous reaction is pointless here.

No clear before and after (on the card). Full disclosure. Option to withdraw - What a better market place it would be if all auction houses were so responsive!!

[Fred]

Personally, I think LOTG does a good job. If they see something in an item they'll take the right action to make corrections. Here's a good example:

A card in this latest auction was found to have a pin hole that wasn't noticed before. The card is graded. What did LOTG do? They gave everyone who bid on the card the opportunity to pull their bid. The item description was updated to let everyone about the pin hole. Not sure what else more they could do.

I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt that LOTG does the right thing.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

I think trying to compare LOTG fully disclosing these issues to all bidders immediately (basically) and offering all of them an opportunity to pull their bids to what PWCC has been doing for years is laughable. It's not even in the same hemisphere let alone ballpark. So waiting for some major scandalous reaction is pointless here.

I am not waiting for any reaction and this is about what I expected. I figured there would be a few more posts about how they're the greatest, most honest auction house in the hobby.

I think it's unlikely that they didn't know the the tin had been cleaned up well before it was disclosed, and that they didn't notice the card had the alteration before they were tipped off.

If the consensus around here is that this type of alteration or conservation is acceptable I have a feeling the hobby will soon evolve to accept others that have only removed things from a card that were not there originally.

I personally don't think erasing a stain and damaging a card in the process is somehow better than using distilled water or a chemical to remove one and leaving no trace behind. I'm not sure it's any worse either.

[Exhibitman]

How is a tin sign a card? The whole equivalence is false.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I am not waiting for any reaction and this is about what I expected. I figured there would be a few more posts about how they're the greatest, most honest auction house in the hobby.

Yes you were absolutely looking for a reaction, otherwise why even point it out? Also, people will come to their defense because they are good people that try to do the right thing and stand for something... you know unlike you.

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I think it's unlikely that they didn't know the the tin had been cleaned up well before it was disclosed, and that they didn't notice the card had the alteration before they were tipped off.

Again, a tin sign is not a card, which is what we have all been talking about. Also, thanks for letting us know what Al & Jeff did or didn't know & what they did or didn't notice, that is very helpful as you are obviously in a position to know what is going in their heads.

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

If the consensus around here is that this type of alteration or conservation is acceptable I have a feeling the hobby will soon evolve to accept others that have only removed things from a card that were not there originally.

I personally don't think erasing a stain and damaging a card in the process is somehow better than using distilled water or a chemical to remove one and leaving no trace behind. I'm not sure it's any worse either.

You seem to think that you have made some sort of point and are drawing some conclusion from that but you haven't... in fact everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[prewarsports]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I'm sad all those signed cards have JSA stickers on the back. They're ruined its archaic. Maybe they can be removed by soaking

Agreed, many of those signed 55 Bowman umpires are VERY tough and the sticker is a major downer!

[BigBeerGut]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

So why do you think it's debatable that an attempt to remove a stain was done deceptively? And why is that even relevant to whether or not you adhere to your own policy?

I haven't accused any one of fraudulent activity, and don't believe there is necessarily anything wrong with some of the outed cards that have simply been cleaned up a little.

But it does seem disingenuous in my opinion to put out a statement saying if you discover a card in your auction has been altered you will pull it immediately, only to leave one that has been up in your next auction.

Jesse:
This stuff can not be stopped. Your wasting your time on all this research just forgot it no one cares about your outings and furthermore you are making no money with it. No one cares. Al emailed all bidder on E95 cobb and 1 guy cancels. Conservation is not coming it is here. You tracking old sales etc just makes you look like a baby. Bid or move on stop being a detective until you can get yourself paid with it. Also: what is your real name? I have never seen a name with @%& characters in it! You comment on Al's auction house and do not post your real name? 3000+ posts ....
Just my 10 cents worth
Everyone complaining about the situation but no leaders emerging to help the cause. Even the key board members just complain and make jokes there
is no change coming.

The Spaeth Guy is right Stuff Trumps All even reconditioned stuff

[frankbmd]

I have no gripe with Jesse, Al, Bob or Leon.

All are human and all make mistakes, even Al.

What gets my goat, if you haven’t figured it out, is the angst of the board members created when anyone dares to point out an issue with LOTG.

Until I see authenticated () video evidence I refuse to believe that Al can either walk on water or that he is one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse. (Hi Al)

Everyone in the hobby can improve and no one should be given a free pass.

Open discussion is beneficial. Being a lone dissenting matador in a bull ring with 87 hungry bulls is not.

I wish everyone well, including myself.

[wondo]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I have no gripe with Jesse, Al, Bob or Leon.

All are human and all make mistakes, even Al.

What gets my goat, if you haven’t figured it out, is the angst of the board members created when anyone dares to point out an issue with LOTG.

Until I see authenticated () video evidence I refuse to believe that Al can either walk on water or that he is one of the four horseman of the apocalypse. (Hi Al)

Everyone in the hobby can improve and no one should be given a free pass.

Open discussion is beneficial. Being a lone dissenting matador in a ball ring with 87 hungry bulls is not.

I wish everyone well, including myself.

Holy moly, Frank!

I 100% agree with you - thank you!

[drcy]

I don't agree with the OP on everything, but I don't think he's said anything even close to being bannable. A chat board will have, and should have, a variety of opinions and takes, some unpopular. His comments are about the cleaning of collectibles, which, while many don't agree with his conclusions, are far from out of topic. And, while I disagree with one half of his argument, the other half was a fair point to bring to discussion and one can't logically argue otherwise. (And me disagreeing with an argument is far from reason for me to think someone should be banned or the post not posted). And, in fact, his original post led to a fruitful discussion on the topic of cleaning collectibles.

Though, yes, I can think of things that would be bannable, or 'timeoutable,' probably including someone who constantly starts posts completely off topic threads, repeatedly factually lies about a seller or is a constant temperamental a-hole in the extreme (timeout may suffice there).

I thought one recent poster's arguments on a recent hot topic were terrible and his repeated voicing of them annoying (and some wondered if he had ulterior motives), but it didn't even cross my mind that he should be banned or that he broke any written or unwritten chatboard rules. And I and others rebutted the arguments. It was all part of debate on a chatboard, and it's good for the mind to read opposing arguments. Echo chambers are no good, even (or perhaps especially) when you agree with what is said.

[timn1]

As usual I agree with David. Nothing bannable here by a long shot.

The loyalty to LOTG on the part of many members here is easy to understand. We think of it as an oasis we can trust, especially in the current sh$tshow. It doesn't mean we think Al is incapable of making a call (in a difficult situation that probably had no ideal solution) that can be second-guessed. But it means we have a pretty high bar of proof, and we don't like the feeling that those criticizing Al might be acting out of some obscure personal grudge.

Then when we express that opinion, we get called a "lynch mob" and told that we think Al walks on water - that imagery is ridiculous. We are just expressing our views, exactly the same as those who are questioning his decisions. As long as it doesn't get personal (which unfortunately it has in a couple of cases in this thread, on both sides), that is what open discussion involves.

IOW, if you post an iconoclastic opinion here, that's your prerogative and your right - but how can you then complain about being disagreed with? Take it like an adult.

Tim

Originally Posted by drcy

I don't agree with the OP on everything, but I don't think he's said anything even close to being bannable. A chat board will have, and should have, a variety of opinions and takes, some unpopular. His comments are about the cleaning of collectibles, which, while many don't agree with his conclusions, are far from out of topic. And, while I disagree with one half of his argument, the other half was a fair point to bring to discussion and one can't logically argue otherwise. (And me disagreeing with an argument is far from reason for me to think someone should be banned or the post not posted). And, in fact, his original post led to a fruitful discussion on the topic of cleaning collectibles.

Though, yes, I can think of things that would be bannable, or 'timeoutable,' probably including someone who constantly starts posts completely off topic threads, repeatedly factually lies about a seller or is a constant temperamental a-hole in the extreme (timeout may suffice there).

I thought one's recent poster arguments on a recent hot topic were terrible and his repeated voicing of them annoying (and some wondered if he had ulterior motives), but it didn't even cross my mind that he should be banned or that he broke any written or unwritten chatboard rules. And I and others rebutted the arguments. It was all part of debate on a chatboard, and it's good for the mind to read opposing arguments. Echo chambers are no good, even when you agree with what is said.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by BigBeerGut

Jesse:
This stuff can not be stopped. Your wasting your time on all this research just forgot it no one cares about your outings and furthermore you are making no money with it. No one cares. Al emailed all bidder on E95 cobb and 1 guy cancels. Conservation is not coming it is here. You tracking old sales etc just makes you look like a baby. Bid or move on stop being a detective until you can get yourself paid with it. Also: what is your real name? I have never seen a name with @%& characters in it! You comment on Al's auction house and do not post your real name? 3000+ posts ....
Just my 10 cents worth
Everyone complaining about the situation but no leaders emerging to help the cause. Even the key board members just complain and make jokes there
is no change coming.

The Spaeth Guy is right Stuff Trumps All even reconditioned stuff

Regarding the portion of the quote in bold...

I think that a lot of people want to do something positive, but aren't sure how to actually fight corruption. I believe many are wanting Law Enforcement to do it's job, make a bold statement, and bring justice to those who've been defrauding us for years.

But to answer your concern more directly, the absolute best way we can stand up to help the cause is to...

A. Stop doing business with known shady dealers (PWCC, HawkDynasty, cccardfactory, LORDSTANLEY2012, etc.) Stop feeding them money and consignments!

B. Stop submitting cards to PSA. The only way they'll ever change is when the money flow lessens. They are failing at their job, and have no plan to fix it. They blame the problem on us (and those who have uncovered this massive fraud). They take zero responsibility, and act like we are at fault by pointing out thousands of indisputable alterations which have garnered numerical grades. They delete posts from their board, which speak the truth, but don't fit with their myopic fan base.

So if we really want to instill change, we must do so with our wallets. That's the one small thing that I am doing. If everyone who cares about the hobby did it, it might not be so small. Stop feeding the corruption... it's the only way to show we have a voice.

Let's focus our efforts towards the real evil, and not legitimize a misguided vendetta against an ethical AH who personally reaches out to every prospective bidder when a last-minute issue arises. PSA's simple response would've been to block the "complainers". I just wish every AH/Dealer/Ebay Seller was half as communicative, honest and forthright as Al.