Darren's Rovell take on PWCC, etc.

[70ToppsFanatic]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So let me get this straight, Jeff Lichtman who is representing PWCC is not a credible source as to the existence of an FBI investigation of his own client? OK. Take it up with Jeff.

You are completely naïve about the extent of altered cards in this hobby. Several hundred indeed. I wish. I am not wasting my time debating it with you. Believe what you want. But just to give some context, people in this hobby love to talk. And when you're a good customer, and a lawyer who they trust to treat things confidentially, they will talk to you very candidly. I have had countless conversations over the past 25 years with auction houses and dealers and advanced collectors about the extent of card doctoring in this hobby and who is doing it, and I am very confident about what I am saying.

PS I didn't think the speculation about Joe's stock sale was appropriate, on that I agree with you.

It comes as little surprise that you revert to your usual tactic of attacking a different opinion than your own and then dismissing and belittling the other person as being wrong/uninformed/naive and not worthy of further consideration because you are so “experienced” and you’re an attorney and all of the ego-centric holier-than-thou attitude that we’ve seen here countless times before in your posts. Some would wonder how you manage to get through doorways without getting your inflated ego stuck on a regular basis.

Not going to fly this time. You are no more concerned than I or many others are about the implications of these allegations, but just because you have appointed yourself as chief defender of the faith doesn’t mean you get to put forth your opinions as confirmed fact. Even a first year law student knows better.

You are obviously a skilled attorney in some of the most important ways. Your ability to carefully parse words when trying to support your own point of view and counter someone of a similar but not as extreme view as your own is certainly well developed. But let’s put back the words you chose to omit that were included in my remarks about FBI involvement, “I’ll believe that the FBI or other authorities are really involved AND TAKING THIS SERIOUSLY...” was how I stated it.

The hobby has been down the “FBI is involved” road a few years ago with Jose’s homemade cellos. I was, comparatively, on the front lines of that one in discovering it. The same photo comparisons, cert verifications and eBay username identification techniques were used then that were used recently on BO, and the “incontrovertible” evidence that was put in the FBIs lap (and PSA’s lap), along with a lot of civil discontent being directed to PSA, got us exactly where? No transparent corrective actions. No accoubtability for Jose.

Just because the attorney of a known bad actor that is up to his neck in these allegations is spinning things to best represent his client does not mean that anything meaningful is really being done by the FBI. We’ve seen one example of how they handled an identical situation already. So my statement about belief was about both parts counselor; involvement AND showing us something that demonstrates they are taking it seriously. But that didn’t quite fit your narrative to present it in its entirety and honestly. Ironic given how fixated you say you are on “the truth”.

As for my supposed naivety, you again jump to a conclusion based on my remarks being limited to the numbers identified by BO so far. Is it possible that there are more? Certainly. Is is possible there are many, many more? Sure. Is it also possible that this is about all that can be identified as being suspect? Maybe. And is it possible that all of the BO detective work doesn’t rise sufficiently to the level of “beyond a reasonable doubt” so that the authorities and primary stakeholders aren’t willing/able to move forward on this? It’s already happened once before with the same kind of situation and several hundred items identified as suspicious. As an attorney you know quite well that there has never been a case that went before a jury that could not have been decided either way. The “I”s all have to be dotted andvthe “T”s all need to be crossed or something called reasonable doubt always enters into it.

Several decades ago I stopped collecting raw cards because so many were altered and being represented as original. Certainly many of these were submitted in hopes of getting them past the “experts”. About 8 years ago I actually discovered a person in Tennessee who had built a micro-trimming machine and was submitting cards and getting more than a few back in slabs. I provided that information to several TPGs. Unfortunately there will always be people trying to take advantage but despite the collective best efforts of all of us the fact remains that neither you, I nor anyone that is not principally involved in the submission and authentication processes knows with any certainty just how many of altered cards actually have made it through other than based on hearsay evidence. Why is it counselor that such evidence is inadmissible in our courts?

We also have very limited knowledge about exactly what technologies and methodologies are being employed by various TPGs in the delivery of their services. Perhaps that’s a shortcoming that really needs to be addressed, but I and many others are sufficiently versed in understanding what technologies and methods are available to know that it is largely possible to detect an overwhelming majority of the doctored items. Measurement tools, chemical detection technologies, magnification tools, etc. are sufficiently advanced to achieve this. Many of them can actually do the job with limited or no human involvement. Whether or not PSA or any of the other TPG’s business practices are taking advantage of these is certainly worth inquiring about, but the tools definitely exist.

We are all well aware that graders are also human and imperfect. Even with the best tools and practices being used there can be little doubt that there are some altered cards in slabs. And we also know there are card doctors and consignment operators in our hobby who are driven purely by greed. There may well be a fire where this smoke is coming from, but based on the solid info and evidence that exists so far very few, if any, of us really know how pervasive this may be.

Your OPINIONS may end up being validated, but right now they are still just OPINIONS no matter how many people agree with them. You can get as many media mentions about them as you can generate to try to create spin but 25 years of “conversations” isn't going to cut it when it comes time to getting corrective actions (if needed), pressing charges and attempting to get convictions.

From the 20,000 foot level that those of us on the message boards can see there are currently ~500 cards that have been identified as suspect out of a total population of several 10s of millions. We know that certain specific people have a history of being bad actors in this regard. We know there is a relationship between a major consignment operator and at least on of these bad actors. We have the “preserved” 1952 Mantle and Brent’s tennets and pathetic attempt to justify it as legitimate. We have a number of removed lots from recent auctions where the decision to remove was largely based on BO investigations that still have some gaps and assumptions baked into them that need to be closed. And of course we have the public statements and responses of the principals which are basically CYA in nature that provided very little. That is the accurate high-level summary of the actual facts we have about the current situation so far. It paints a concerning picture, but the scope/scale of that picture is currently still based on conjecture and fear, not fact.

From the perspective of most of us, if even 1 of the suspected cards proves to be altered then it’s too many. If the FBI actually does take this instance seriously and subpoenas the business records of PWCC, PSA, eBay, the major AHs, etc. there may finally be a way to confirm the suspicions and allegations. But until 1) that happens, 2) one of those involved decides to come clean, 3) a critical mass subset of those parties I’ve named voluntarily come together to reconcile their business records or 4) forensic examination of enough of the suspected cards can confirm the allegations then opinions about scope/scale cannot be fairly bandied about as facts just to incite a mob mentality to try to add pressure on the principal players.

I’ll stand by what I have said previously. Speculation about what might happen and how big this is doesn’t help to get the info and answers that all of us want to see provided. Further, there are a lot of concerned stakeholders who are at risk of being hurt, but not necessarily in the same degree or way, depending on what and how much ultimately comes out.

You seem to have made it clear that you are no fan of PSA and you don’t care who ends up getting hurt as long as “the truth” is told. You seem to be making it your mission to reach that goal and trying to create groundswell of civil discontent, but based on allegations, concerning but incomplete investigative work and a representation of the scope/scale that is only supported by hearsay.

There are others of us who also would like to see things investigated and addressed as is reasonably possible and necessary without creating a bloodbath of innocent vendors and collectors in the process. The serious risk of irreparable harm to the hobby has to be factored into things too. Those of us in this camp, which I most certainly am in, are not your enemies. We seek similar goals but aren’t so consumed by the injustice as to lose sight of the bigger picture.

Perhaps you may try on a few of the perspectives I’ve shared and choose to temper both your efforts. Perhaps not. Dissemination of properly identified facts versus other information that isn’t yet solid or is clearly speculation, in addition to approaching this is a pragmatic way that isn’t completely destructive, is all I have been commenting about.

You can reply or not as you choose. If somewhat complementary perspectives like mine are unworthy of your self-proclaimed superior insight it’s not going to cause me to lose any sleep. But perhaps you might consider that there are better ways to play nicely with others here than the approach you have chosen to take both in this specific case and with many others who have opinions that don’t exactly match your own.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dave, your first post said, "Whether ornnit legal authorities are getting involved remains to be seen." (typo in original) In that context I interpreted your second post as restating, not modifying, that message. If I misread it, I apologize, but I did not detect any shift. More importantly, as to whether the investigation results in serious consequences for the bad actors, I am hopeful but also skeptical. I am certainly not holding out false hope and yes the hobby has been disappointed before. My disagreement with you in this regard was over the existence of an investigation.

I won't respond to the ad hominem attacks other than to say you are of course entitled to your opinion of me. Whatever. I admit to being very passionate and vocal on these topics but I would not presume to appoint myself anything, I am one poster on a message board and there are many of us who would like to see things change.

I disagree with you strongly on your continuing attempts to downplay what is common knowledge at the highest levels of the hobby about the extent of altered cards in slabs, and to suggest some courtroom like burden of proof. It's far more than suspicions and allegations. I do think you are being naïve or perhaps willfully blind here, honestly. This has been going on since cert 00000001.

Finally, I'm not looking to hurt anyone. I'm looking for some positive change, as are many of us here, but I/we don't trust the powers that be to implement any, they've had decades and come up with nothing. Ever try to raise the issue of altered cards on CU? It's like looking to Wall Street in 2008 to fix itself.

[swarmee]

70ToppsFanatic, when you minimize the scandal to the currently known "500" or so PSA cards instead of inching closer to the 11,000 cards on the tainted submission lists, you lose a lot of credibility yourself.
Did you read the pages where the BODA guys took apart the 1948 Leaf sets?
Say that there were an average of two per card in the sets exposed with visual evidence, so maybe 200 cards. Now I just ran a search of "1948 Leaf" in my google spreadsheet, and it was returned 2074 times.

What percent of those other 1900x 1948 Leafs submitted with known trimmed/altered cards do you think were not modified prior to PSA grading? Remember, all the ones where PSA detected the trimming or minsizreq issues were returned raw.

Maybe 30% which would be 800 total altered?
Maybe 50%, which would be 1150 total? Even more?

How useful is the 1948 Leaf set registry if hundreds to thousands of the cards are tainted?

If PSA isn't going to remove all these cards from their Pop Reports, in order to get them back in hand for review under their grade guarantee, how does any collector have trust in their product?

[perezfan]

"It comes as little surprise that you revert to your usual tactic of attacking a different opinion than your own and then dismissing and belittling the other person as being wrong/uninformed/naive and not worthy of further consideration because you are so “experienced” and you’re an attorney and all of the ego-centric holier-than-thou attitude that we’ve seen here countless times before in your posts. Some would wonder how you manage to get through doorways without getting your inflated ego stuck on a regular basis."

Attacking a different opinion than your own

and

Dismissing and belittling the other person

It seems the quote above is the very definition of this. Please don't turn a blind eye to documented facts and please don't belittle the undisputable work that's been done to uncover the fraud and corruption. Minimizing the numbers and pretending there is no pertinent investigation will not help things.

This is the biggest scandal to hit the hobby/industry... Denial mode is not a good long-term strategy for Orlando, PSA and/or its defenders.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

It comes as little surprise that you revert to your usual tactic of attacking a different opinion than your own and then dismissing and belittling the other person as being wrong/uninformed/naive and not worthy of further consideration because you are so “experienced” and you’re an attorney and all of the ego-centric holier-than-thou attitude that we’ve seen here countless times before in your posts. Some would wonder how you manage to get through doorways without getting your inflated ego stuck on a regular basis.

Not going to fly this time. You are no more concerned than I or many others are about the implications of these allegations, but just because you have appointed yourself as chief defender of the faith doesn’t mean you get to put forth your opinions as confirmed fact. Even a first year law student knows better.

You are obviously a skilled attorney in some of the most important ways. Your ability to carefully parse words when trying to support your own point of view and counter someone of a similar but not as extreme view as your own is certainly well developed. But let’s put back the words you chose to omit that were included in my remarks about FBI involvement, “I’ll believe that the FBI or other authorities are really involved AND TAKING THIS SERIOUSLY...” was how I stated it.

The hobby has been down the “FBI is involved” road a few years ago with Jose’s homemade cellos. I was, comparatively, on the front lines of that one in discovering it. The same photo comparisons, cert verifications and eBay username identification techniques were used then that were used recently on BO, and the “incontrovertible” evidence that was put in the FBIs lap (and PSA’s lap), along with a lot of civil discontent being directed to PSA, got us exactly where? No transparent corrective actions. No accoubtability for Jose.

Just because the attorney of a known bad actor that is up to his neck in these allegations is spinning things to best represent his client does not mean that anything meaningful is really being done by the FBI. We’ve seen one example of how they handled an identical situation already. So my statement about belief was about both parts counselor; involvement AND showing us something that demonstrates they are taking it seriously. But that didn’t quite fit your narrative to present it in its entirety and honestly. Ironic given how fixated you say you are on “the truth”.

As for my supposed naivety, you again jump to a conclusion based on my remarks being limited to the numbers identified by BO so far. Is it possible that there are more? Certainly. Is is possible there are many, many more? Sure. Is it also possible that this is about all that can be identified as being suspect? Maybe. And is it possible that all of the BO detective work doesn’t rise sufficiently to the level of “beyond a reasonable doubt” so that the authorities and primary stakeholders aren’t willing/able to move forward on this? It’s already happened once before with the same kind of situation and several hundred items identified as suspicious. As an attorney you know quite well that there has never been a case that went before a jury that could not have been decided either way. The “I”s all have to be dotted andvthe “T”s all need to be crossed or something called reasonable doubt always enters into it.

Several decades ago I stopped collecting raw cards because so many were altered and being represented as original. Certainly many of these were submitted in hopes of getting them past the “experts”. About 8 years ago I actually discovered a person in Tennessee who had built a micro-trimming machine and was submitting cards and getting more than a few back in slabs. I provided that information to several TPGs. Unfortunately there will always be people trying to take advantage but despite the collective best efforts of all of us the fact remains that neither you, I nor anyone that is not principally involved in the submission and authentication processes knows with any certainty just how many of altered cards actually have made it through other than based on hearsay evidence. Why is it counselor that such evidence is inadmissible in our courts?

We also have very limited knowledge about exactly what technologies and methodologies are being employed by various TPGs in the delivery of their services. Perhaps that’s a shortcoming that really needs to be addressed, but I and many others are sufficiently versed in understanding what technologies and methods are available to know that it is largely possible to detect an overwhelming majority of the doctored items. Measurement tools, chemical detection technologies, magnification tools, etc. are sufficiently advanced to achieve this. Many of them can actually do the job with limited or no human involvement. Whether or not PSA or any of the other TPG’s business practices are taking advantage of these is certainly worth inquiring about, but the tools definitely exist.

We are all well aware that graders are also human and imperfect. Even with the best tools and practices being used there can be little doubt that there are some altered cards in slabs. And we also know there are card doctors and consignment operators in our hobby who are driven purely by greed. There may well be a fire where this smoke is coming from, but based on the solid info and evidence that exists so far very few, if any, of us really know how pervasive this may be.

Your OPINIONS may end up being validated, but right now they are still just OPINIONS no matter how many people agree with them. You can get as many media mentions about them as you can generate to try to create spin but 25 years of “conversations” isn't going to cut it when it comes time to getting corrective actions (if needed), pressing charges and attempting to get convictions.

From the 20,000 foot level that those of us on the message boards can see there are currently ~500 cards that have been identified as suspect out of a total population of several 10s of millions. We know that certain specific people have a history of being bad actors in this regard. We know there is a relationship between a major consignment operator and at least on of these bad actors. We have the “preserved” 1952 Mantle and Brent’s tennets and pathetic attempt to justify it as legitimate. We have a number of removed lots from recent auctions where the decision to remove was largely based on BO investigations that still have some gaps and assumptions baked into them that need to be closed. And of course we have the public statements and responses of the principals which are basically CYA in nature that provided very little. That is the accurate high-level summary of the actual facts we have about the current situation so far. It paints a concerning picture, but the scope/scale of that picture is currently still based on conjecture and fear, not fact.

From the perspective of most of us, if even 1 of the suspected cards proves to be altered then it’s too many. If the FBI actually does take this instance seriously and subpoenas the business records of PWCC, PSA, eBay, the major AHs, etc. there may finally be a way to confirm the suspicions and allegations. But until 1) that happens, 2) one of those involved decides to come clean, 3) a critical mass subset of those parties I’ve named voluntarily come together to reconcile their business records or 4) forensic examination of enough of the suspected cards can confirm the allegations then opinions about scope/scale cannot be fairly bandied about as facts just to incite a mob mentality to try to add pressure on the principal players.

I’ll stand by what I have said previously. Speculation about what might happen and how big this is doesn’t help to get the info and answers that all of us want to see provided. Further, there are a lot of concerned stakeholders who are at risk of being hurt, but not necessarily in the same degree or way, depending on what and how much ultimately comes out.

You seem to have made it clear that you are no fan of PSA and you don’t care who ends up getting hurt as long as “the truth” is told. You seem to be making it your mission to reach that goal and trying to create groundswell of civil discontent, but based on allegations, concerning but incomplete investigative work and a representation of the scope/scale that is only supported by hearsay.

There are others of us who also would like to see things investigated and addressed as is reasonably possible and necessary without creating a bloodbath of innocent vendors and collectors in the process. The serious risk of irreparable harm to the hobby has to be factored into things too. Those of us in this camp, which I most certainly am in, are not your enemies. We seek similar goals but aren’t so consumed by the injustice as to lose sight of the bigger picture.

Perhaps you may try on a few of the perspectives I’ve shared and choose to temper both your efforts. Perhaps not. Dissemination of properly identified facts versus other information that isn’t yet solid or is clearly speculation, in addition to approaching this is a pragmatic way that isn’t completely destructive, is all I have been commenting about.

You can reply or not as you choose. If somewhat complementary perspectives like mine are unworthy of your self-proclaimed superior insight it’s not going to cause me to lose any sleep. But perhaps you might consider that there are better ways to play nicely with others here than the approach you have chosen to take both in this specific case and with many others who have opinions that don’t exactly match your own.

I actually read that whole post start to finish. I get 10 points and a gold star!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ask WhenItWasAHobby how interested PSA was when many years ago he presented to them conclusive evidence of cards being doctored by a Houston area dealer.

Ask anyone who remembers how forthcoming PSA was during the WIWAG debacle.

Ask anyone who has tried to post his concerns on CU and been poofed instantly how open to "civil discourse" PSA is.

But we should wait patiently for the "stakeholders" to sort this out among themselves. No thank you.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ask WhenItWasAHobby how interested PSA was when many years ago he presented to them conclusive evidence of cards being doctored by a Houston area dealer.

Ask anyone who remembers how forthcoming PSA was during the WIWAG debacle.

Ask anyone who has tried to post his concerns on CU and been poofed instantly how open to "civil discourse" PSA is.

But we should wait patiently for the "stakeholders" to sort this out among themselves. No thank you.

What was the result of the WIWAG card sale by the way....i believe that card was outed during the auction and the poster that was selling the card got all mad i believe.. but did it just sell and that was it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

What was the result of the WIWAG card sale by the way....i believe that card was outed during the auction and the poster that was selling the card got all mad i believe.. but did it just sell and that was it?

Google WIWAG. It was a whole scandal with stolen PSA slabs, inserting lesser grade cards, etc. 2003 or thereabouts I believe. PSA refused to release the certs of affected cards.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Google WIWAG. It was a whole scandal with stolen PSA slabs, inserting lesser grade cards, etc. 2003 or thereabouts I believe. PSA refused to release the certs of affected cards.

ah i was confusing that with the outed Gehrig during the auction where the poster got all mad it was 'outed' during the auction

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

ah i was confusing that with the outed Gehrig during the auction where the poster got all mad it was 'outed' during the auction

When It Was a Game. Used to be a fairly big player in the market.