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#1
07-27-2019, 02:33 PM
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Many are working themselves up into a “sky-is-falling” mentality over this that is way beyond anything that has been established as fact so far.
It appears that some altered cards have found their way into slabs. That is based on some reasonably done investigative work, but it is not quite without some gaps and some assumptions that still need to be confirmed. Having the business records of The TPGs, PWCC, eBay and the major auction houses would go a long way to helping to complete the work done so far. However, unless legal authorities get involved I tend to doubt that the stakeholders mentioned would be willing to voluntary turn over that information. Whether ornnit legal authorities are getting involved remains to be seen. There are media accounts that the FBI is looking into things. If true, that is hopeful news. In the meantime we’ve had conpletely unsubstantiated speculations about thousands and thousands of bad cards, CEOs dumping stock, TPG complicity and various other hyperbole that comes from various constituencies who have different interests in how this whole thing pans out and are trying to create spin and groundswell favoring the outcomes they most desire. What is clear is that there are accusations and concerns about integrity issues in the hobby. Some stakeholders have gotten out in front of it with their communications about it. Others have not done quite as good a job, further fueling speculation and shaking confidence. What is needed more than anything is patience and time to sort out what has and what has not actually happened. But there have to also be limits to that patience. This cannot be allowed to drag on endlessly, only to end up swept under a rug until the next episode that results in a flare up arrives. It is the responsibility of the major stakeholders to get to the bottom of things in a timely manner and then transparently let the hobby know what they have found and what they plan to do to address it and prevent similar episodes again in the future. A few months time seems woefully insufficient for getting that done, but I would expect that it shouldn’t take more than the time that has elapsed already for some concrete information to be provided. As for those who continue to create suspicion and doubt through unsubstantiated claims and speculation, that only defects from getting to the bottom of exactly what is and fuels an unhelpful, and potentially damaging, mob mentality. Stick to the facts. Respectfully reach out to the major stakeholders and ask them what they are doing about the current situation and when they are willing to commit to providing a transparent update on where they are in investigating and addressing it. Avoid going down the path of conspiracy theories and character assasination based on comments that are not backed up by hard evidence. That is truly what is in the best interests of the hobby and the many small stakeholders who are legitimately concerned about the present situation. 
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#2
07-27-2019, 02:46 PM
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__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions
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#3
07-27-2019, 02:50 PM
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PWCC's own lawyer has confirmed on this Board there is an FBI investigation, with all due respect what are you talking about?
By the way, what "stakeholders" are out in front of it in your opinion? "It appears that some altered cards have found their way into slabs." You have a gift for understatement and minimization. Perhaps the best line yet of this whole epic. I can't even think of a good analogy. Noah standing on the Ark and saying, it appears to be raining.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.  My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-27-2019 at 03:08 PM.
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#4
07-27-2019, 04:12 PM
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meat on the bone. When it was Jose’s homemade cello packs with stars on top making there way into slabs a few years ago the FBI was supposedly all over it too. As for stakeholders getting out in front, I was referring to examples like the statement put out by Goldin Auctions. There have been a few others. The response from PWCC, PSA and others more directly involved has left a lot of room for improvement. At the same time, I think we can all understand that they need to be very careful in issuing any statements. The original PSA statement by Steve Sloan was actually pretty benign and an introductory more-to-come kind of statement. The Joe Orlando follow-up was disappointing to say the least. Ultimately we as the consumers in this market are going to vote with our wallets based on how the vendors in this market handle the current situation. I’m not suggesting for a moment that people shouldn’t be doing that whenever they feel it is appropriate, even right away. All I am saying is that spreading unsubstantiated talk such as this is so much bigger than anyone’s knows, insider stock dumps, speculating on what happens if so-and-so does such-and-such is not helping anything, and may be distracting from what really needs to be focused on. As for understating something I disagree. Even 1 altered card in a slab is wrong, but unless you have evidence showing otherwise right now there are several hundred cards that are suspected of being no good so far based on good, but not complete or infallible, investigative work. We did similar things several years ago investigating the homemade cello packs and it wasn’t sufficient to hold up to the evidentiary standards required to put away the bad actor involved then. From some of the uninformed frenzy that has been generated some think in reading message boards that its every third or fourth card. That’s just nonsense. Perhaps Peter if it seemed that you had less of an axe to grind against PSA you would be a bit more controlled in attacking calls for avoiding misinformation and unsubstantiated statements that only serve to deflect focus from where it needs to be. We all want to know what happened (or didn’t), how big the problem is, what will be done to make the victims whole, what will be done to prevent it from happening again and what consequences will the people responsible for it face. The issue is that those questions can’t be answered without first looking into it, and that’s not so easy when some of the players are trying to protect their livelihoods and/or their freedom. Message board hysteria is not what is going to make the big players start getting us those answers. Only two things can; either 1) law enforcement authorities decide to go after this seriously (which is pretty hard for us to influence) or 2) the big players start hearing a groundswell from respectful customers that express concerns and ask, not demand, that these big players step up and lead on this. How does putting out BS speculation that Joe Orlando is dumping his stock get us what we need? How does some of the venomous stuff being written about PSA help get them moving faster? The only other scenario is to try and cause a market crash so that it no longer matters if the big stakeholders get us the answers or not. Unfortunately that means that the bad actors end up winning this round because then there is no one trying to deter them until something else comes in to replace the TPGs, and it means the hobby gets hurt and a lot of collectors lose a lot. That’s what’s really at stake here
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#5
07-27-2019, 04:17 PM
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You are completely naïve about the extent of altered cards in this hobby. Several hundred indeed. I wish. I am not wasting my time debating it with you. Believe what you want. But just to give some context, people in this hobby love to talk. And when you're a good customer, and a lawyer who they trust to treat things confidentially, they will talk to you very candidly. I have had countless conversations over the past 25 years with auction houses and dealers and advanced collectors about the extent of card doctoring in this hobby and who is doing it, and I am very confident about what I am saying. PS I didn't think the speculation about Joe's stock sale was appropriate, on that I agree with you.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-27-2019 at 04:42 PM.
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#6
07-28-2019, 12:41 PM
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Not going to fly this time. You are no more concerned than I or many others are about the implications of these allegations, but just because you have appointed yourself as chief defender of the faith doesn’t mean you get to put forth your opinions as confirmed fact. Even a first year law student knows better. You are obviously a skilled attorney in some of the most important ways. Your ability to carefully parse words when trying to support your own point of view and counter someone of a similar but not as extreme view as your own is certainly well developed. But let’s put back the words you chose to omit that were included in my remarks about FBI involvement, “I’ll believe that the FBI or other authorities are really involved AND TAKING THIS SERIOUSLY...” was how I stated it. The hobby has been down the “FBI is involved” road a few years ago with Jose’s homemade cellos. I was, comparatively, on the front lines of that one in discovering it. The same photo comparisons, cert verifications and eBay username identification techniques were used then that were used recently on BO, and the “incontrovertible” evidence that was put in the FBIs lap (and PSA’s lap), along with a lot of civil discontent being directed to PSA, got us exactly where? No transparent corrective actions. No accoubtability for Jose. Just because the attorney of a known bad actor that is up to his neck in these allegations is spinning things to best represent his client does not mean that anything meaningful is really being done by the FBI. We’ve seen one example of how they handled an identical situation already. So my statement about belief was about both parts counselor; involvement AND showing us something that demonstrates they are taking it seriously. But that didn’t quite fit your narrative to present it in its entirety and honestly. Ironic given how fixated you say you are on “the truth”. As for my supposed naivety, you again jump to a conclusion based on my remarks being limited to the numbers identified by BO so far. Is it possible that there are more? Certainly. Is is possible there are many, many more? Sure. Is it also possible that this is about all that can be identified as being suspect? Maybe. And is it possible that all of the BO detective work doesn’t rise sufficiently to the level of “beyond a reasonable doubt” so that the authorities and primary stakeholders aren’t willing/able to move forward on this? It’s already happened once before with the same kind of situation and several hundred items identified as suspicious. As an attorney you know quite well that there has never been a case that went before a jury that could not have been decided either way. The “I”s all have to be dotted andvthe “T”s all need to be crossed or something called reasonable doubt always enters into it. Several decades ago I stopped collecting raw cards because so many were altered and being represented as original. Certainly many of these were submitted in hopes of getting them past the “experts”. About 8 years ago I actually discovered a person in Tennessee who had built a micro-trimming machine and was submitting cards and getting more than a few back in slabs. I provided that information to several TPGs. Unfortunately there will always be people trying to take advantage but despite the collective best efforts of all of us the fact remains that neither you, I nor anyone that is not principally involved in the submission and authentication processes knows with any certainty just how many of altered cards actually have made it through other than based on hearsay evidence. Why is it counselor that such evidence is inadmissible in our courts? We also have very limited knowledge about exactly what technologies and methodologies are being employed by various TPGs in the delivery of their services. Perhaps that’s a shortcoming that really needs to be addressed, but I and many others are sufficiently versed in understanding what technologies and methods are available to know that it is largely possible to detect an overwhelming majority of the doctored items. Measurement tools, chemical detection technologies, magnification tools, etc. are sufficiently advanced to achieve this. Many of them can actually do the job with limited or no human involvement. Whether or not PSA or any of the other TPG’s business practices are taking advantage of these is certainly worth inquiring about, but the tools definitely exist. We are all well aware that graders are also human and imperfect. Even with the best tools and practices being used there can be little doubt that there are some altered cards in slabs. And we also know there are card doctors and consignment operators in our hobby who are driven purely by greed. There may well be a fire where this smoke is coming from, but based on the solid info and evidence that exists so far very few, if any, of us really know how pervasive this may be. Your OPINIONS may end up being validated, but right now they are still just OPINIONS no matter how many people agree with them. You can get as many media mentions about them as you can generate to try to create spin but 25 years of “conversations” isn't going to cut it when it comes time to getting corrective actions (if needed), pressing charges and attempting to get convictions. From the 20,000 foot level that those of us on the message boards can see there are currently ~500 cards that have been identified as suspect out of a total population of several 10s of millions. We know that certain specific people have a history of being bad actors in this regard. We know there is a relationship between a major consignment operator and at least on of these bad actors. We have the “preserved” 1952 Mantle and Brent’s tennets and pathetic attempt to justify it as legitimate. We have a number of removed lots from recent auctions where the decision to remove was largely based on BO investigations that still have some gaps and assumptions baked into them that need to be closed. And of course we have the public statements and responses of the principals which are basically CYA in nature that provided very little. That is the accurate high-level summary of the actual facts we have about the current situation so far. It paints a concerning picture, but the scope/scale of that picture is currently still based on conjecture and fear, not fact. From the perspective of most of us, if even 1 of the suspected cards proves to be altered then it’s too many. If the FBI actually does take this instance seriously and subpoenas the business records of PWCC, PSA, eBay, the major AHs, etc. there may finally be a way to confirm the suspicions and allegations. But until 1) that happens, 2) one of those involved decides to come clean, 3) a critical mass subset of those parties I’ve named voluntarily come together to reconcile their business records or 4) forensic examination of enough of the suspected cards can confirm the allegations then opinions about scope/scale cannot be fairly bandied about as facts just to incite a mob mentality to try to add pressure on the principal players. I’ll stand by what I have said previously. Speculation about what might happen and how big this is doesn’t help to get the info and answers that all of us want to see provided. Further, there are a lot of concerned stakeholders who are at risk of being hurt, but not necessarily in the same degree or way, depending on what and how much ultimately comes out. You seem to have made it clear that you are no fan of PSA and you don’t care who ends up getting hurt as long as “the truth” is told. You seem to be making it your mission to reach that goal and trying to create groundswell of civil discontent, but based on allegations, concerning but incomplete investigative work and a representation of the scope/scale that is only supported by hearsay. There are others of us who also would like to see things investigated and addressed as is reasonably possible and necessary without creating a bloodbath of innocent vendors and collectors in the process. The serious risk of irreparable harm to the hobby has to be factored into things too. Those of us in this camp, which I most certainly am in, are not your enemies. We seek similar goals but aren’t so consumed by the injustice as to lose sight of the bigger picture. Perhaps you may try on a few of the perspectives I’ve shared and choose to temper both your efforts. Perhaps not. Dissemination of properly identified facts versus other information that isn’t yet solid or is clearly speculation, in addition to approaching this is a pragmatic way that isn’t completely destructive, is all I have been commenting about. You can reply or not as you choose. If somewhat complementary perspectives like mine are unworthy of your self-proclaimed superior insight it’s not going to cause me to lose any sleep. But perhaps you might consider that there are better ways to play nicely with others here than the approach you have chosen to take both in this specific case and with many others who have opinions that don’t exactly match your own.
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#7
07-28-2019, 12:57 PM
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Dave, your first post said, "Whether ornnit legal authorities are getting involved remains to be seen." (typo in original) In that context I interpreted your second post as restating, not modifying, that message. If I misread it, I apologize, but I did not detect any shift. More importantly, as to whether the investigation results in serious consequences for the bad actors, I am hopeful but also skeptical. I am certainly not holding out false hope and yes the hobby has been disappointed before. My disagreement with you in this regard was over the existence of an investigation.
I won't respond to the ad hominem attacks other than to say you are of course entitled to your opinion of me. Whatever. I admit to being very passionate and vocal on these topics but I would not presume to appoint myself anything, I am one poster on a message board and there are many of us who would like to see things change. I disagree with you strongly on your continuing attempts to downplay what is common knowledge at the highest levels of the hobby about the extent of altered cards in slabs, and to suggest some courtroom like burden of proof. It's far more than suspicions and allegations. I do think you are being naïve or perhaps willfully blind here, honestly. This has been going on since cert 00000001. Finally, I'm not looking to hurt anyone. I'm looking for some positive change, as are many of us here, but I/we don't trust the powers that be to implement any, they've had decades and come up with nothing. Ever try to raise the issue of altered cards on CU? It's like looking to Wall Street in 2008 to fix itself.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-28-2019 at 02:47 PM.
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#8
07-28-2019, 01:06 PM
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70ToppsFanatic, when you minimize the scandal to the currently known "500" or so PSA cards instead of inching closer to the 11,000 cards on the tainted submission lists, you lose a lot of credibility yourself.
Did you read the pages where the BODA guys took apart the 1948 Leaf sets? Say that there were an average of two per card in the sets exposed with visual evidence, so maybe 200 cards. Now I just ran a search of "1948 Leaf" in my google spreadsheet, and it was returned 2074 times. What percent of those other 1900x 1948 Leafs submitted with known trimmed/altered cards do you think were not modified prior to PSA grading? Remember, all the ones where PSA detected the trimming or minsizreq issues were returned raw. Maybe 30% which would be 800 total altered? Maybe 50%, which would be 1150 total? Even more? How useful is the 1948 Leaf set registry if hundreds to thousands of the cards are tainted? If PSA isn't going to remove all these cards from their Pop Reports, in order to get them back in hand for review under their grade guarantee, how does any collector have trust in their product?
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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#9
07-28-2019, 01:28 PM
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"It comes as little surprise that you revert to your usual tactic of attacking a different opinion than your own and then dismissing and belittling the other person as being wrong/uninformed/naive and not worthy of further consideration because you are so “experienced” and you’re an attorney and all of the ego-centric holier-than-thou attitude that we’ve seen here countless times before in your posts. Some would wonder how you manage to get through doorways without getting your inflated ego stuck on a regular basis."
Attacking a different opinion than your own and Dismissing and belittling the other person It seems the quote above is the very definition of this. Please don't turn a blind eye to documented facts and please don't belittle the undisputable work that's been done to uncover the fraud and corruption. Minimizing the numbers and pretending there is no pertinent investigation will not help things. This is the biggest scandal to hit the hobby/industry... Denial mode is not a good long-term strategy for Orlando, PSA and/or its defenders. Last edited by perezfan; 07-28-2019 at 01:31 PM.
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#10
07-28-2019, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
 I actually read that whole post start to finish. I get 10 points and a gold star!
__________________
I'm always looking for t206's with purple numbers stamped on the back like the one in my avatar. The Great T206 Back Stamp Project: Click Here My Online Trading Site: Click Here Member of OBC (Old Baseball Cards), the longest running on-line collecting club www.oldbaseball.com My Humble Blog: Click Here
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#11
07-27-2019, 06:57 PM
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#12
07-27-2019, 07:41 PM
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On their way: 50 from HOF Autos Collection 170 of 1952 Topps Baseball 50 of 1952 Topps Baseball Autographed 150 cards of Mickey Mantle on the Master Set Registry 113 cards of the T121 World War I set 70 of the 80 cards in the 1959 Fleer Ted Williams set Mattingly Rookie Set (plus Nestle and Tiffany) Mark Teixeira Rookie Set (plus a bunch of others) 32 Bobby Jones 30 Christopher Columbus 8 N43 13 T6 Whole bunch of odds and ends, along with the 32 cards from the board bulk submission going straight to COMC. Sending my complete set of R184 Indian Chiefs and some other odds and ends to the next Nonsports Auction. So I'm clearing out 750 PSA slabs out of my collection. For now, I'll be keeping the #1 rated T51 Murad Colleges set and the T56 Fraternal Emblems. I submitted the vast majority of those cards from collections I purchased on eBay, and believe them to be good. I was a pretty big PSA homer until this latest scandal broke, and the post on the CU board from 15 years ago where Joe Orlando said it's better to let trimmers/alterers continue to submit to PSA rather than taking away their privileges being dredged up really teed me off. In order for this scandal to actually get PSA to change, I want to see a big drop in the value of PSA graded slabs. And less people to submit. And more people to protest. We've still only reached a minority of PSA collectors. I reached out to one guy who had 13 cards in one set exposed as trimmed by Blowout. This guy wasn't contacted by PSA or PWCC to tell him his cards were altered. It requires the crowd-sourcing BO has been doing in order to make people aware of the fraud perpetrated against them.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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#13
07-27-2019, 07:51 PM
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__________________
Just a collector that likes to talk and read about the Hobby. 🤓👍🏼
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#14
07-27-2019, 08:00 PM
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#15
07-28-2019, 08:33 PM
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#16
07-30-2019, 02:04 PM
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[QUOTE=swarmee;1903401]I spent half the day looking through my house for all my slabs to figure out which ones I'm sending to COMC for sale on Monday.
I see that COMC blogged that one of their members submitted 6000 slabbed cards. I'm thinking that COMC will be the next big dumping ground for altered cards. It may be happening already.
__________________
Rick McQuillan T213-2 139 down 46 to go.
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#17
07-30-2019, 02:15 PM
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But you're right, people should be aware of the cards they're looking at from every source, be it eBay, COMC, shows, auction houses, PWCC, etc.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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#18
07-30-2019, 02:35 PM
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[QUOTE=buymycards;1904148]
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As examples i recently was looking to upgrade a few 55 Bowmans and 59 Fleer Ted Williams cards. I bought the Bowmams off eBay for 25% of the lowest prices on COMC. The 59 Fleer prices are insane, you can buy graded NrMint and better cards on eBay for less than the ungraded beaters are priced on COMC.
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#19
07-27-2019, 04:14 PM
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https://www.fbi.gov/investigate Last edited by vintagetoppsguy; 07-27-2019 at 04:15 PM. Reason: Forgot to include link to list
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#20
07-27-2019, 04:39 PM
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__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions
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#21
07-27-2019, 02:53 PM
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Well written. To the point, depressing and accurate.
Act two starts later this week.
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#22
07-27-2019, 03:15 PM
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All I've seen are the three Ds. Delete, deny, deflect. Maybe I missed something? G'head though. Give 'er a shot. Let me know what they say. ; ) Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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#23
07-27-2019, 03:30 PM
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The best part of his post was Joe asking for civil discourse. The company's idea of civil discourse is POOF.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-27-2019 at 03:32 PM.
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