OMG Blowout list of suspected trimmed modern cards

[barrysloate]

There seems to be no boundaries to the scope of this scandal, and what is perfectly clear is TPG's simply do not have the ability to detect the alterations. The card doctors are light years ahead.

I've been in this hobby for thirty five years, and I've seen various levels of fraud pretty much the whole way through. But this dwarfs anything I have seen to date. I am very curious how this is all going to be addressed.

[calvindog]

Holy shit. If there are before and after pics for these cards, PSA and Beckett are in deep shit.

[perezfan]

They just need to go away forever. A new system (or no system) is needed.

STOP SUPPORTING THEM, PEOPLE!

And do not look to them to fix the problem. It would be like asking Lance Armstrong to fix the doping issue for the Olympics. Just be done.

[swarmee]

There are for a bunch. Then just like with Moser, they can put the submission back together and all cards submitted are considered tainted until proven otherwise. There is a thread on Robert Block in the member feedback section if you want to see a lot of the before and after pictures.

[frankbmd]

I’m sure that some of our members would not consider this evidence.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I’m sure that some of our members would not consider this evidence.

It's just a list of cards and cert numbers. I did not see any evidence in that list. Perhaps you could point it out to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

It's just a list of cards and cert numbers. I did not see any evidence in that list. Perhaps you could point it out to me.

I would agree to an extent. With the exception of references to cards already identified as trimmed by clear photo evidence, it's a list of SUSPECTED cards. Merely appearing on the list is not proof a card was altered. Depending on your point of view, there could be a presumption, although at this point that would not get one over the more likely than not threshold in a lawsuit and so it's more of an opinion/personal judgment. At the very least, though, it's certainly a red flag that anyone with cards on the list should -- if they care -- take proactive measures to further assess those cards. In my opinion, very valuable information for the collecting community. It's just a shame guys on the internet have to uncover this information which is much more readily accessible to the TPGs and to PWCC.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would agree to an extent. With the exception of references to cards already identified as trimmed by clear photo evidence, it's a list of SUSPECTED cards. Merely appearing on the list is not proof a card was altered. Depending on your point of view, there could be a presumption, although at this point that would not get one over the more likely than not threshold in a lawsuit and so it's more of an opinion/personal judgment. At the very least, though, it's certainly a red flag that anyone with cards on the list should -- if they care -- take proactive measures to further assess those cards. In my opinion, very valuable information for the collecting community.

I'd say this is the first time in a while we are in complete agreement. If I'm reading that thread correctly many of the cards in question aren't even alleged to be altered, just bumped successfully at too high a rate to be considered legitimate. Well I certainly believe that's possible, and even likely, that alone is not proof.

If anything this shows how small the difference in the actual quality of the card between a 9, 9.5, 10, or black label is and how absurd the price difference is. A card in any one of those 4 holders would not look out of place in any other, most of the time.

I would be surprised if people hadn't figured out a way to exploit this. Way too much money at stake for a grader making whatever they make not to try to cash in.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by swarmee

There are for a bunch. Then just like with Moser, they can put the submission back together and all cards submitted are considered tainted until proven otherwise.

I wish this were the case legally.

The modern stuff is going to dwarf the vintage losses.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I can only assume 312 is working up a list for one or more other guys identified as modern trimmers.

If modern dwarfs vintage it will be because the other vintage guys haven't left the same tracks and the history goes too far back.

[calvindog]

Agreed. It’s certainly not for lack of trying lol.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What I don't know is how these guys operate in terms of their submissions. Do they just submit stacks of altered cards, or do they try to throw the graders off the trail of the altered ones by mixing in clean ones, for example. Either way, it could end up a nightmare for people owning cards with certs in these subs but without the before and after pics. I imagine some will turn out to be obviously altered, but others may not be so obvious and some may even be legit.

Maybe some of the people here who profess such expertise in detecting alterations should offer their services.

[soxinseven]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I can only assume 312 is working up a list for one or more other guys identified as modern trimmers.

If modern dwarfs vintage it will be because the other vintage guys haven't left the same tracks and the history goes too far back.

I think modern will always dwarf vintage in the fraud department due to sheer volume produced and the demand for current players. Maybe percentage wise it could be close but when the total numbers shake out I feel like you will see more altered modern cards than vintage.

[Exhibitman]

So basically we all need to look at our own cards and learn to judge condition and authenticity?!?!?! F***!