Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You're being ridiculous. You say this...



... but then only include PWCC in your poll. If they're all share in the blame equally, why not include them equally? If they're all equal, why would you do business with one and not the other? I don't get that.

But I do get this. Your poll proves Jesse right. It really is a mob mentality.

Why you are sniping at someone doing his best to criticize fraud in the hobby we all presumably love is beyond me at this point, David.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I should add Leon that you really would be best advised not to continue to make pronouncements about what you think the law is. Do you think for example that Robin Hood would have been excused from the crime of stealing because he thought it was the right thing to do?

Not knowing right from wrong is an insanity defense but otherwise it's not the issue for intent.

[Leon]

ok, then he was insane.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I should add Leon that you really would be best advised not to continue to make pronouncements about what you think the law is. Do you think for example that Robin Hood would have been excused from the crime of stealing because he thought it was the right thing to do?

Not knowing right from wrong is an insanity defense but otherwise it's not the issue for intent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

ok, then he was insane.

Well, there may be something to that, he does sometimes get insane prices.

[swarmee]

I'm very confused by all this talk. Remember, PWCC has been selling cards from approximately 10 card doctors, passed through PSA, Beckett, and SGC. All of them are at fault.
If PSA doesn't pay out to the victims on their grade guarantees, there will be just as many threads on them. PSA can still claim ignorance in passing the doctored cards as long as they pay out on their policies or have PWCC do it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why you are sniping at someone doing his best to criticize fraud in the hobby we all presumably love is beyond me at this point, David.

Because the fraud is being perpetrated by multiple parties and you only choose to focus on one of those parties. And don't tell me to read your other posts about how you blame PSA too. I've read them. Words are one thing, actions are another. You could have included PSA in this poll too if you really thought they share equally in the blame.

Hypothetical question. Let's say YOU had the power to successfully prosecute ONLY ONE of these parties and get a conviction - the other two skate. Who would you choose? Brent? Gary? PSA?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Because the fraud is being perpetrated by multiple parties and you only choose to focus on one of those parties. And don't tell me to read your other posts about how you blame PSA too. I've read them. Words are one thing, actions are another. You could have included PSA in this poll too if you really thought they share equally in the blame.

Hypothetical question. Let's say YOU had the power to successfully prosecute ONLY ONE of these parties and get a conviction - the other two skate. Who would you choose? Brent? Gary? PSA?

Gary.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Because the fraud is being perpetrated by multiple parties and you only choose to focus on one of those parties. And don't tell me to read your other posts about how you blame PSA too. I've read them. Words are one thing, actions are another. You could have included PSA in this poll too if you really thought they share equally in the blame.

Hypothetical question. Let's say YOU had the power to successfully prosecute ONLY ONE of these parties and get a conviction - the other two skate. Who would you choose? Brent? Gary? PSA?

What’s PSA’s crime?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by calvindog

What’s PSA’s crime?

I don't know about NY, but in TX it's against the law to take money for a service you didn't provide.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I don't know about NY, but in TX it's against the law to take money for a service you didn't provide.

Really? Which Texas criminal statute are you referring to?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Really? Which Texas criminal statute are you referring to?

It's right under the statute that affirms that doctoring a card is fraud. Surely you're familiar with it?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It's right under the statute that affirms that doctoring a card is fraud. Surely you're familiar with it?

PSA’s incompetence is not criminal, just as stupidity isn’t criminalized either.

[jhs5120]

I said yes, I'll still consign. If someone creates a consignment service as efficient and effective as PWCC, maybe I'll switch. I haven't bought much from them, but if they still had something that I liked, I'd still probably bid. I tend to shy away from high-dollar cards at PWCC though.

On a related note, why have we only heard from LOTG on this scandal? Surely many of these cards originated from other auction houses. Surely these cards will start to make their way into other auction houses if PWCC actually starts to reject Moser consignments. Should we assume other auction houses will reject six figure consignments from Moser if given the opportunity?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I said yes, I'll still consign. If someone creates a consignment service as efficient and effective as PWCC, maybe I'll switch. I haven't bought much from them, but if they still had something that I liked, I'd still probably bid. I tend to shy away from high-dollar cards at PWCC though.

On a related note, why have we only heard from LOTG on this scandal? Surely many of these cards originated from other auction houses. Surely these cards will start to make their way into other auction houses if PWCC actually starts to reject Moser consignments. Should we assume other auction houses will reject six figure consignments from Moser if given the opportunity?

It's not just Gary. There are lots of guys doing this work and have been for decades. Sigh. And yes many AHs take their cards. I had an extraordinary conversation with one of them a few years back, it was quite the wake up call to what really goes on.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's not just Gary. There are lots of guys doing this work and have been for decades. Sigh. And yes many AHs take their cards. I had an extraordinary conversation with one of them a few years back, it was quite the wake up call to what really goes on.

Peter, let me start by saying that you and I are on the same team. I share your extreme distaste for the BS in this hobby. My eyes have been opened here, and I'm adjusting my collecting accordingly.

But you keep alluding to this well of knowledge about other card doctors and AHs that might be complicit as well.

My question is - why not share that knowledge? Tell us about that conversation. Give us the details.

With all due respect, I don't know how 100s of snarky posts help advance the hobby at this point. Many of us would benefit by hearing what you know vs. just what you think about the topic at hand. The latter has been well established, but I know many would benefit from your knowledge as it might help others avoid potential landmines. I say that without any sarcasm at all.