Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[Leon]

Taking out the top line of the poll, since they weren't customers to start with, it is close to 50/50 who will buy/undecided vs won't do business again. BTW., I think a LOT of people share Jesse's views but won't voice them due to what has transpired in this thread. Members piling on. (and in their mind rightfully so)....but it is still piling on. Trust me on that.

Peter- you know how I feel from our conversations on the phone.

Here is the one thing I have thought, and like Jesse, could absolutely be wrong.

Lets say Brent KNEW he was selling altered cards from Moser. I think that is a given. What isn't a given, is that he actually thought what he was doing was wrong., By almost all of his statements it seems he was drinking Moser's Kool Aid about what is allowable or not. Still guilty but not quite the same.
If I were his lawyer my first defense exhibit would be everything Brent has said. To me, and I think the law pertaining to sentences (at least), there is a difference between knowingly doing something wrong and doing something wrong but not knowing it was wrong when you did it. I am NOT defending any actions, only stating a point of view. And I am not saying Brent/PWCC is innocent, I am just saying, in my view, there is a reasonable chance, based on what I have seen and my very recent conversations with Brent, that he thought he wasn't doing anything wrong. On the other hand Moser knew what he was doing was wrong ie... Specific Intent. And I think PSA needs to step up their game a whole lot.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Taking out the top line of the poll, since they weren't customers to start with, it is close to 50/50 who will buy/undecided vs won't do business again. BTW., I think a LOT of people share Jesse's views but won't voice them due to what has transpired in this thread. Members piling on. (and in their mind rightfully so)....but it is still piling on. Trust me on that.

Peter- you know how I feel from our conversations on the phone.

Here is the one thing I have thought, and like Jesse, could absolutely be wrong.

Lets say Brent KNEW he was selling altered cards from Moser. I think that is a given. What isn't a given, is that he actually thought what he was doing was wrong., By almost all of his statements it seems he was drinking Moser's Kool Aid about what is allowable or not. Still guilty but not quite the same.
If I were his lawyer my first defense exhibit would be everything Brent has said. To me, and I think the law, there is a difference between knowingly doing something wrong and doing something wrong but not knowing it was wrong when you did it. I am NOT defending any actions, only stating a point of view. And I am not saying Brent/PWCC is innocent, I am just saying, in my view, there is a reasonable chance, based on what I have seen and my very recent conversations with Brent, that he thought he wasn't doing anything wrong. On the other hand Moser knew what he was doing was wrong. And I think PSA needs to step up there game a whole lot.

You're tying yourself in knots Leon. Gary did not convince him trimming and recoloring and sharpening corners were OK. I promise you.

Agreed on Gary and PSA.

[Leon]

I didn't say that. Brent has always told me he thought trimming was wrong and adding anything to a card was wrong.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're tying yourself in knots Leon. Gary did not convince him trimming and recoloring and sharpening corners were OK. I promise you.

Agreed on Gary and PSA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by leon

i didn't say that. Brent has always told me he thought trimming was wrong and adding anything to a card was wrong.

QED. He knew what Gary did, trust me. Was he alone? No, not at all, many people did and do the same thing, to some extent for Gary and for many other card doctors. But that doesn't excuse Brent. He knowingly sold altered cards for money. He knew it was wrong. It isn't any more complicated than that.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Leon

Lets say Brent KNEW he was selling altered cards from Moser. I think that is a given. What isn't a given, is that he actually thought what he was doing was wrong

I don't think that's a defense...


Counselor

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I don't think that's a defense...


Counselor

As I posted it's actually an insanity defense, but other than Leon I don't think anyone else is going there.

The notion being that if you are insane and don't have the ability to differentiate right from wrong, you can't form the requisite criminal intent. Distillation of a complex topic.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As I posted it's actually an insanity defense, but other than Leon I don't think anyone else is going there.

The notion being that if you are insane and don't have the ability to differentiate right from wrong, you can't form the requisite criminal intent. Distillation of a complex topic.

I should have said it is a mitigating circumstance.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I should have said it is a mitigating circumstance.

That is a sentencing issue. You really should quit.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That is a sentencing issue. You really should quit.

I did realize that.
On the other hand, I think if you keep going at the pace you are, you are going to over take me in number of posts. LOL

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I did realize that.
On the other hand, I think if you keep going at the pace you are, you are going to over take me in number of posts. LOL

If you make incorrect statements about the law, I feel obliged to respond. LOL.