PWCC Statement on Recent Card Trimming Concerns

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That's a reasonable analysis but then why is Orlando/Sloan's first statement on the matter an obvious effort to protect against the possibility of a big payout by trying to minimize the scope of the problem, and telling people to go to their sellers with a problem and not PSA? Unless of course the seller is "unknown." Right, I buy lots of cards from unknown people on street corners. Why not just own up to the issue, do their best to help defrauded collectors, institute some positive changes, and move forward? If they truly can afford to deal with this, their instincts are very poor in my opinion.

This is from their 10k

In the case of trading cards, in fiscal 2018, the authentication and grading fees ranged from approximately $1 to $3,575 but averaged $8.74, per trading card. As a
general rule, collectibles dealers and, to a lesser extent, individual collectors, request faster turnaround times and, therefore, generally pay higher fees for more valuable, older
or “vintage” collectibles than they do for modern collectibles.


It is a publicly traded company with stockholders. I would expect them to try and protect the fort. We will know more in the coming months as stories from affected individuals will make it online. I posted a copy of the info my friend Rob (Wrestlingcardking) got from PWCC and it looks to me like it isn't going to be a slam dunk that he sees a refund quickly or at all. Time will tell. In his case the card is in his registry set so many collectors might be faced with the choice to send back the card and break up their set. I could see a scenario where some keep the cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

This is from their 10k

In the case of trading cards, in fiscal 2018, the authentication and grading fees ranged from approximately $1 to $3,575 but averaged $8.74, per trading card. As a
general rule, collectibles dealers and, to a lesser extent, individual collectors, request faster turnaround times and, therefore, generally pay higher fees for more valuable, older
or “vintage” collectibles than they do for modern collectibles.


It is a publicly traded company with stockholders. I would expect them to try and protect the fort. We will know more in the coming months as stories from affected individuals will make it online. I posted a copy of the info my friend Rob (Wrestlingcardking) got from PWCC and it looks to me like it isn't going to be a slam dunk that he sees a refund quickly or at all. Time will tell. In his case the card is in his registry set so many collectors might be faced with the choice to send back the card and break up their set. I could see a scenario where some keep the cards.

it is a company that ultimately depends on the faith of the collecting community. I would expect them to do what it takes to restore and preserve that faith even at the expense of a short term hit to the bottom line. The corporate culture seems to be one of secrecy and an ostrich-like stance vis a vis the community. Poof -- kinda says it all.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

it is a company that ultimately depends on the faith of the collecting community. I would expect them to do what it takes to restore and preserve that faith even at the expense of a short term hit to the bottom line. The corporate culture seems to be one of secrecy and an ostrich-like stance vis a vis the community. Poof -- kinda says it all.

I am very curious to see what happens with the Musial PSA 10. It appeared that some ink was added to the card and if they can't tell when it is in hand I could see the grade standing.

If it gets refunded I could also see them going after this Moser guy and trying to recoup their money that way.

Time will tell.

[Frank A]

I hope the hell PSA goes down the drain. They created a product so people would be sure their cards are real and turned it into a money making ripoff. I wouldn't send a card to PSA again if the price for grading was $1.00. They have turned into an absolute joke. And yes I have a number of cards graded by them, but never again. Frank.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Maybe the author of this book is the referenced O'Keefe?

It's a good book and came out in 2007 - I wish I had paid more attention to it. There is a whole chapter where the author visits a card doctor who shows him examples of cards he gets past TPGs.

https://www.amazon.com/Card-Collecto.../dp/0061123927

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by TanksAndSpartans

Maybe the author of this book is the referenced O'Keefe?

It's a good book and came out in 2007 - I wish I had paid more attention to it. There is a whole chapter where the author visits a card doctor who shows him examples of cards he gets past TPGs.

https://www.amazon.com/Card-Collecto.../dp/0061123927

That be he.

[T205 GB]

I can only speak from cards I have seen ink added to or altered in some way. What I have noticed is the ink actually forms a layer over the adjoining ink and is identifiable under magnification. When holding it back and looking at the card from arms distance these spots sometimes show up as surface marks, wax stains, halos, or scuffs and passed off as such. If the person reviewing does their due diligence they will review the spots individually. Stop to think about the time it will take a person to review that much data. How many cards will go by before one is legit altered? There are a lot of ink altered cards out in holders old and new simply due to the variable ratio schedule. BUT, Such high end cards should be given to a couple of specialized graders that are given ample time to review regardless of turn times.

I am amazed at how much focus is being made on the inks dots when the biggest tell its altered is blatant. Never in the history of ever did these cards come from the factory clean shaved. The paper cutting guillotine machines didn't allow for it to occur. The real collectors know this and so do all the graders familiar with this time frame of cards. Yes some are prettier than others but all have fiber pull and none will ever come off razor sharp without the factory rolled edge. The card has been altered for a while and its a shame it made it back this far.

[Scott L.]

Interesting theory posted on blowout......

“Aren't the cards surfaced after printing? This is how Moser has been able to get recoloring past PSA graders -- after recoloring, he's been resurfacing the gloss on the cards, so that whatever work he's done appears to have occurred before the card's original surfacing was applied.”

Could that be possible?

[iwantitiwinit]

From PSA's most recent 10-Q (qtr ended 3/31/19), pg 11 https://q10k.com/CLCT

Warranty Costs



We provide a limited warranty covering the coins and trading cards that we authenticate and grade. Under the warranty, if any collectible coin or trading card that was previously authenticated and graded by us is later submitted to us for re-grading and either (i) receives a lower grade upon that re-submittal or (ii) is determined not to have been authentic, we will offer to purchase the collectible or, in the alternative, at the customer’s option, pay the difference in value of the item at its original grade, as compared to its value at its lower grade. However, this warranty is voided if the collectible, upon re-submittal to us, is not in the same tamper-evident holder in which it was placed at the time we last graded it. We accrue for estimated warranty costs based on historical trends and related experience. We monitor the adequacy of our warranty reserves on an ongoing basis for significant claims resulting from resubmissions receiving lower grades or deemed not to have been authentic. Warranty expense recognized in the three and nine months ended March 31, 2019 was $73,000 and $402,000, respectively, as compared to $128,000 and $343,000, respectively, in the three and nine months ended March 31, 2018.


Also from that same 10-Q page 12

Their accrued warranty reserve at the end of 3/31/19 looks to be $728,000.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Scott L.

Interesting theory posted on blowout......

“Aren't the cards surfaced after printing? This is how Moser has been able to get recoloring past PSA graders -- after recoloring, he's been resurfacing the gloss on the cards, so that whatever work he's done appears to have occurred before the card's original surfacing was applied.”

Could that be possible?

It's very possible. What usually trips up the people who regum stamps (a similar process) is that the new gum runs just over the edge and soaks into the side, where it's often really obvious.

[bobbyw8469]

Is nothing sacred with this guy?? I'm blown away at how many tainted cards are apparently out there!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2878

[steve B]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

I can only speak from cards I have seen ink added to or altered in some way. What I have noticed is the ink actually forms a layer over the adjoining ink and is identifiable under magnification. When holding it back and looking at the card from arms distance these spots sometimes show up as surface marks, wax stains, halos, or scuffs and passed off as such. If the person reviewing does their due diligence they will review the spots individually. Stop to think about the time it will take a person to review that much data. How many cards will go by before one is legit altered? There are a lot of ink altered cards out in holders old and new simply due to the variable ratio schedule. BUT, Such high end cards should be given to a couple of specialized graders that are given ample time to review regardless of turn times.

I am amazed at how much focus is being made on the inks dots when the biggest tell its altered is blatant. Never in the history of ever did these cards come from the factory clean shaved. The paper cutting guillotine machines didn't allow for it to occur. The real collectors know this and so do all the graders familiar with this time frame of cards. Yes some are prettier than others but all have fiber pull and none will ever come off razor sharp without the factory rolled edge. The card has been altered for a while and its a shame it made it back this far.

That viewable difference is what I'd expect. I believe it's possible to do it better, so it's less obvious.

All TPGs need to reverse the in house time tiered pricing, and review the card as long as it takes to get it right nearly every time.

That rolled edge is the key for sure. A newly sharpened blade won't have much roll, and one side of the cut rolls a bit more than the other. And that roll survives a ton of abuse, I have cards that are P-F and it's still easy to spot.