1952 Bowman Stan Musial PSA 10 on eBay :o

[barrysloate]

I'm going with the nobody risks a 9 to try and get a 10. I don't think there is a single collector/submitter who can even tell you what the difference is. To me the only way you get a 10 is if the grader feels like giving it a 10. I smell something fishy too.

You might risk a 5 to get a 6, or a 6 to get an 8, because each of those cards has a flaw that can be improved. But a 9 is flawless. If you had a 9 and a magic wand to change it, what would you even attempt to do to make it better?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I'm going with the nobody risks a 9 to try and get a 10. I don't think there is a single collector/submitter who can even tell you what the difference is. To me the only way you get a 10 is if the grader feels like giving it a 10. I smell something fishy too.

You might risk a 5 to get a 6, or a 6 to get an 8, because each of those cards has a flaw that can be improved. But a 9 is flawless. If you had a 9 and a magic wand to change it, what would you even attempt to do to make it better?

Look what he DID do in this case, why speculate? There are before and after pics on BO. I give up, Dave and I seem to be the only ones posting who understand this in context.

[Dpeck100]

It seems like there are more white specs in the after pic on his sleeve right by his wrist.

Anyone else see that?

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Look what he DID do in this case, why speculate? There are before and after pics on BO. I give up, Dave and I seem to be the only ones posting who understand this in context.

Peter, without question you are correct. Any loss is meaningless in this context and I’m sure he has lost plenty. He has such made up on many more.

[nolemmings]

That's one explanation Peter, but I'm not buying it here. At most you’ve explained the submitter’s motivation, but it doesn’t eliminate or even reduce the likelihood of the TPG involvement, which is why I stay suspicious.

PSA knows, or with an eye-blink's worth of investigation can learn that there are no graded tens of this 67 year old card depicting one of the most popular players collected. Now it comes to the grader in the course of his mundane, look at hundreds of cards for for a few seconds each day, and he says, hey neat, we got ourselves a 10. Strange that we only hand out that highest grade to about a 10th of one percent of the cards submitted from that set, but wow, somehow this card just pops. No need for extra scrutiny just because this is one of the keys to the set, and I live in a bubble so I have no idea what my grade might mean to the owner financially, so let's just slap a 10 on this bad boy.

Now of course it could be that several graders and even an upper mgmt type look at cards this valuable before they get slabbed, if only because of potential liability in the event of a mistake. In that case, they are not necessarily a knowing participant in fraud, just grossly incompetent. But I believe it is folly to dismiss their potential involvement just because you’ve concluded the submitter has money or cards to burn and would of course take the risk of eating a few thousand here and there.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I leave it to you to prove your conspiracy theory, Todd. I'll stick with common sense. If he had an inside grader, as I just said, he wouldn't even have to alter cards he could just do reviews and crackouts of legit cards.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Look what he DID do in this case, why speculate? There are before and after pics on BO. I give up, Dave and I seem to be the only ones posting who understand this in context.

I just looked at the pictures on BO again, and the before and after look identical. Can anybody discern what was done to the 9 to improve it? My eyes aren't perfect, but they look the same to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I just looked at the pictures on BO again, and the before and after look identical. Can anybody discern what was done to the 9 to improve it? My eyes aren't perfect, but they look the same to me.

Yes, they analyzed the recoloring over there.

[swarmee]

Colored print dot on front left border white.
Colored some of the red line on shoulder red to fill gaps.
Colored the whitish spot on the sleeve blue to match.
Colored the gap in the bottom right of the A on back in black to hide.

As well as, the PSA 9 might have also been altered prior to because it doesn't have either left or right edge with a rough cut, which would seem to indicate it was trimmed or sheet cut.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Colored print dot on front left border white.
Colored some of the red line on shoulder red to fill gaps.
Colored the whitish spot on the sleeve blue to match.
Colored the gap in the bottom right of the A on back in black to hide.

As well as, the PSA 9 might have also been altered prior to because it doesn't have either left or right edge with a rough cut, which would seem to indicate it was trimmed or sheet cut.

If it was trimmed or sheet cut, he wouldn't have cracked it. He's too damn knowledgeable.

[barrysloate]

That turns a 3K card into a 25K card? Absolutely f**king nuts!

[PiratesWS1979]

The marks that were supposedly removed are actually common attributes of the ’52 Bowman Musial.
Has anybody ever thought that it may have actually bumped to a “10” and was photoshopped when auctioned?

The buyer was on here so maybe he can shed some more light on this.

Hopefully this is the case and there are far less trimmed/altered cards then thought and is just a “camera trick”.

sorry for the poor images

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by PiratesWS1979

The marks that were supposedly removed are actually common attributes of the ’52 Bowman Musial.
Has anybody ever thought that it may have actually bumped to a “10” and was photoshopped when auctioned?

The buyer was on here so maybe he can shed some more light on this.

Hopefully this is the case and there are far less trimmed/altered cards then thought and is just a “camera trick”.

sorry for the poor images

Zero chance it simply bumped. Those marks, while common, were removed and touched up. Card fibers on the reverse prove they are the same card.

[conor912]

I don't know the OP, though he seems like a good guy and I sincerely hope he gets the restitution he's looking for. That said, it's impossible to convince me that he and his ilk aren't the source of this entire problem. Of course not knowingly, but the happy willingness to spend $22k more on a 10 than a 9 is ultimately what is being taken advantage here. It wouldn't be entirely fair to put this squarely on the guys with deep pockets, as no one deserves to get ripped off, regardless of their financial standing. However, they do have a seat at the table which, like or not, is what money buys you in this country. I just wish enough of them would be willing to take their money off the table to make a difference.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Look what he DID do in this case, why speculate? There are before and after pics on BO. I give up, Dave and I seem to be the only ones posting who understand this in context.

I agree with you and would add his risk is much less then the 9 to altered value delta. If PSA kills it, it goes to SGC then BVG then back to PSA. Guy has altered thousands of cards and has enough data to know what his chance is of it slipping through, somewhere. He knows they consistently miss these types of alterations. I mean these guys are getting 52 mantles through, its incompetence at the TPG IMO

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Look what he DID do in this case, why speculate? There are before and after pics on BO. I give up, Dave and I seem to be the only ones posting who understand this in context.

I agree with Peter. I don't think this implicates PSA.

I agree with Barry on another point. The difference between a '9' and '10' is largely subjective, except maybe as to centering. Like Barry, I have never understood the enormous difference in values at the high end.

[MULLINS5]

Brent actually owned/owns a separate business restoring antiques.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by mark evans

I agree with Peter. I don't think this implicates PSA.

Except they're supposed to be experts at authentication.

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Except they're supposed to be experts at authentication.

True. I was speaking to the fraud. Hopefully, these recent disclosures will result in PSA and/or other services stepping up their game in identifying alterations.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by mark evans

True. I was speaking to the fraud. Hopefully, these recent disclosures will result in PSA and/or other services stepping up their game in identifying alterations.

Too little too late, isn't it? How many dollars have they taken for a service they weren't capable of delivering? It sounds like there are some VERY forgiving people on this forum.

[perezfan]

I don’t get the blind forgiveness either... other than they are already so monetarily invested in PSA slabs. Time for a new competent TPG to step forward. Or better yet, less emphasis on TPGs, period.