Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David I know they concluded that, and I do recall he admitted subbing the DiMaggio card, but I can't recall all the steps in their reasoning. But he clearly knew what this individual did to cards, I can attest to that myself from conversations.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I have asked multiple times for proof of this, but my requests have gone ignored. If it's been posted, then I simply overlooked it so please re-post.

Originally Posted by T206Collector

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1289859

There is no cliff notes version of this. It's extensive, some of it is complicated, portions of it are speculative but there's often good reason for that speculation, a lot of it is still "circumstantial" because OBVIOUSLY no one is going to directly admit to trimming cards on a message board. However, the pictures speak for themselves. There are HUNDREDS of them, across all sports and non-sports, vintage and modern.

Using the the slab numbers of those that are pretty clearly trimmed, leads to other slabs numbered close to those, which at least at some level casts some doubt over those other cards. Not conclusive, maybe not even circumstantial, but certainly questionable.

There is also extensive work done that indicates specific buyers of certain cards, particularly from prior PWCC auctions, that then came back into later PWCC auctions with higher grades and updated flowery descriptions. Since we don't know who the consigners were, and OBVIOUSLY PWCC isn't going to tell us that, it's still circumstantial at best. The SPECULATION is that possibly those cards were busted out of the cases, sent back raw to PWCC to be submitted to PSA for grading, and then coming back in the new better cases and FREQUENTLY given the PQ/HE stickers.

PWCC appears to admit knowing who some of these people are, and admitting to having done business with them in the past in their tenets thread. PWCC in their video said "pictures are not evidence", which is just a silly thing to say, especially considering earlier on in March-May PWCC had taken down some auctions when they were identified as trimmed USING PICTURES. They've also said they don't know who the consignors are when the stickers are given out, but that just doesn't ring true and has been refuted by at least one consignor.

If you prefer to play lawyer, then I guess there's some scenario that can be created where PWCC didn't know anything and is really a victim here. Maybe there's a scenario where PSA/BGS didn't really know these people either. However, the volume that's been discovered thus far is pretty overwhelming, and it's not a huge leap of logic to believe there is very likely much more out there to be discovered.

I suspect it will take some legal authorities to get involved to accelerate the discovery and get to the funds flow, but based on what has been found thus far it's not hard to imagine there's a lot more interaction between the TPGs, PWCC and the bad actors than anyone is currently letting on. Give it time.

This is NOT going away. Go read just some of those threads and try to convince yourself that these "investigators" sound like they're just planning to drop all this at some point. Not gonna happen.

[Stampsfan]

Posting on this for the first time, and appreciate all the undercover work over on BO, plus having the folks here link to (and consequently introduce me to) BO. Like all who love this hobby, I'm sickened. What I cannot understand is how people cannot see cards that do not fit into the holder, especially modern cards.

Having said that, and in advance I want to commend corndog on BO on the time and effort he and others are putting into this. I have, however, to question this Gehrig card:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2109

While there are many, many similarities between the two items pictured, I wonder how the white print dots appear on the "conserved" card, at the right top of his forehead, plus on the brim of the cap. Further, there appears to be a nick in the top of the card just left of center. These types of things would not be the types of things that a card doctor would add.

Not trying to defend anyone involved in this scam, but treat this as I need help understanding.

The other part that really has me fearful of the breadth and depth of this fraud is the Parkhurst wresting card. I mean, if those cards are being doctored, there is no limit to the amount of potential fraud.

Bob

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Having said that, and in advance I want to commend corndog on BO on the time and effort he and others are putting into this. I have, however, to question this Gehrig card:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2109

While there are many, many similarities between the two items pictured, I wonder how the white print dots appear on the "conserved" card, at the right top of his forehead, plus on the brim of the cap. Further, there appears to be a nick in the top of the card just left of center. These types of things would not be the types of things that a card doctor would add.

Not trying to defend anyone involved in this scam, but treat this as I need help understanding.


Bob

It could be from the scanner and not on the card. The appear to be the same card given the identified and other characteristics of the card. The edge imperfections even match.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Posting on this for the first time, and appreciate all the undercover work over on BO, plus having the folks here link to (and consequently introduce me to) BO. Like all who love this hobby, I'm sickened. What I cannot understand is how people cannot see cards that do not fit into the holder, especially modern cards.

Having said that, and in advance I want to commend corndog on BO on the time and effort he and others are putting into this. I have, however, to question this Gehrig card:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2109

While there are many, many similarities between the two items pictured, I wonder how the white print dots appear on the "conserved" card, at the right top of his forehead, plus on the brim of the cap. Further, there appears to be a nick in the top of the card just left of center. These types of things would not be the types of things that a card doctor would add.

Not trying to defend anyone involved in this scam, but treat this as I need help understanding.

The other part that really has me fearful of the breadth and depth of this fraud is the Parkhurst wresting card. I mean, if those cards are being doctored, there is no limit to the amount of potential fraud.

Bob

I certainly have doubts about individual cards, but there are 100's that leave no doubt, so not losing too much sleep over a few that are doubtful.

[chalupacollects]

Having said that, and in advance I want to commend corndog on BO on the time and effort he and others are putting into this. I have, however, to question this Gehrig card:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2109

While there are many, many similarities between the two items pictured, I wonder how the white print dots appear on the "conserved" card, at the right top of his forehead, plus on the brim of the cap. Further, there appears to be a nick in the top of the card just left of center. These types of things would not be the types of things that a card doctor would add.

Not trying to defend anyone involved in this scam, but treat this as I need help understanding. [/QUOTE]

Actually there have been a couple of Blowout threads where the "surgeons" have added or enhanced a defect to throw people off the scent. These "surgeons" know what they are doing and are scary good at it...

[bobbyw8469]

It looks like the same card to me.....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

It looks like the same card to me.....

Between the centering and the corners it's clearly the same card IMO. Uh, I mean asset.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Posting on this for the first time, and appreciate all the undercover work over on BO, plus having the folks here link to (and consequently introduce me to) BO. Like all who love this hobby, I'm sickened. What I cannot understand is how people cannot see cards that do not fit into the holder, especially modern cards.

Having said that, and in advance I want to commend corndog on BO on the time and effort he and others are putting into this. I have, however, to question this Gehrig card:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2109

While there are many, many similarities between the two items pictured, I wonder how the white print dots appear on the "conserved" card, at the right top of his forehead, plus on the brim of the cap. Further, there appears to be a nick in the top of the card just left of center. These types of things would not be the types of things that a card doctor would add.

Not trying to defend anyone involved in this scam, but treat this as I need help understanding.

The other part that really has me fearful of the breadth and depth of this fraud is the Parkhurst wresting card. I mean, if those cards are being doctored, there is no limit to the amount of potential fraud.

Bob

In the case of the '34 Gehrig, it is just glare from the plastic holder. Obviously the same card (before and after), as are all of the examples presented in which PSA has failed. Not a good time to diminish the meticulous work that's being done for the good of the hobby, or bury our heads in the sand.

[Exhibitman]

The answer is simple enough:

--Stop dealing with PWCC;
--Stop dealing with PSA;
--Cancel your VCP subscription.

And let the latter two know why.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The answer is simple enough:

--Stop dealing with PWCC;
--Stop dealing with PSA;
--Cancel your VCP subscription.

And let the latter two know why.

Adam you are asking a lot here.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The answer is simple enough:

--Stop dealing with PWCC;
--Stop dealing with PSA;
--Cancel your VCP subscription.

And let the latter two know why.

This. This. This.

But let's see who actually will. Like I said, we need to start a new thread with those willing to do this and sign their names to it - a pledge - and hold people accountable to their pledge. I'll sign it. Anybody else?

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The answer is simple enough:

--Stop dealing with PWCC;
--Stop dealing with PSA;
--Cancel your VCP subscription.

And let the latter two know why.

This is getting ridiculous.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

It's amazing. The same evil sorcery that caused the bizarre purge of back scans from PWCC website after their "server crossover" has now struck poor VCP! What cruel priestess spins such a wicked spell on our beloved hobby stalwarts??? Why must such unexplainable disease burden the back scan??? Hath god spited the card number? Perhaps he tired of thou outdated statistics???

Who will be the next victim in this completely random PWCC pre-2015 back scan-only virus??? Quick! Everyone to their hard drives! There's no telling if you've been afflicted!

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

It's amazing. The same evil sorcery that caused the bizarre purge of back scans from PWCC website after their "server crossover" has now struck poor VCP! What cruel priestess spins such a wicked spell on our beloved hobby stalwarts??? Why must such unexplainable disease burden the back scan??? Hath god spited the card number? Perhaps he tired of thou outdated statistics???

Who will be the next victim in this completely random PWCC pre-2015 back scan-only virus??? Quick! Everyone to their hard drives! There's no telling if you've been afflicted!

Seems to work fine..

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

It's amazing. The same evil sorcery that caused the bizarre purge of back scans from PWCC website after their "server crossover" has now struck poor VCP! What cruel priestess spins such a wicked spell on our beloved hobby stalwarts??? Why must such unexplainable disease burden the back scan??? Hath god spited the card number? Perhaps he tired of thou outdated statistics???

Who will be the next victim in this completely random PWCC pre-2015 back scan-only virus??? Quick! Everyone to their hard drives! There's no telling if you've been afflicted!

You realize they don't host these images? They are on other sites. They have no control over whether or not they appear. At least that's how I understand it.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The answer is simple enough:

--Stop dealing with PWCC;
--Stop dealing with PSA;
--Cancel your VCP subscription.

And let the latter two know why.

I have been avoiding PWCC for many years and just use PSA for cards I want to sell for way more than I could get any other way.

That is silly to put Bobby/VCP in that group for now. Has it been proven he actually done anything.

Adding Bobby would be like you not visiting this site because PWCC is the largest advertiser here.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The answer is simple enough:

--Stop dealing with PWCC;
--Stop dealing with PSA;
--Cancel your VCP subscription.

And let the latter two know why.

I support this sentiment. I certainly won't be bidding on any more PWCC listings and I won't be buying any more PSA or BGS (let's not forget BGS has a huge part in this too) graded items. I guess I'll have to wait for a real TPG competitor to arrive and have my PC stuff regraded someday. Hopefully none are altered, but that's now unlikely. I don't have a VCP sub, but I wouldn't do any business with anyone with ties to this situation (I don't have business interactions with Leon, so don't even try it), especially after seeing the proprietor's deflection attempts. Playing dumb doesn't work. You know darn well what's happening within your own business, down to every little detail.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

I support this sentiment. I certainly won't be bidding on any more PWCC listings and I won't be buying any more PSA or BGS (let's not forget BGS has a huge part in this too) graded items. I guess I'll have to wait for a real TPG competitor to arrive and have my PC stuff regraded someday. Hopefully none are altered, but that's now unlikely. I don't have a VCP sub, but I wouldn't do any business with anyone with ties to this situation (I don't have business interactions with Leon, so don't even try it), especially after seeing the proprietor's deflection attempts. Playing dumb doesn't work. You know darn well what's happening within your own business, down to every little detail.

This is just about the part I made bold. This may seem strange to some but I have no problem with Leon taking Brents $ for advertising. Seriously do you stop watching a channel on TV because they aired a commercial you don't like. I may not like the advertisement but I sure as hell like the channel/forum or I wouldn't be here.

He is letting all this go down on HIS forum, gotta respect him for that.

Someone might want to quote this for posterity.

[Tennis13]

So do people thing SGC is in the clear here, or is this story still unfolding and it could move to them as well?

I have mostly always bought SGC vintage and got my Ruth’s at SGc even though they traded at a discount to PSA because I always feel like PSA is a bomb ready to explode.

Do people think that the PSA premium may now go away and SGc may trade at a premium? Just curious.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

I support this sentiment. I certainly won't be bidding on any more PWCC listings and I won't be buying any more PSA or BGS (let's not forget BGS has a huge part in this too) graded items. I guess I'll have to wait for a real TPG competitor to arrive and have my PC stuff regraded someday. Hopefully none are altered, but that's now unlikely. I don't have a VCP sub, but I wouldn't do any business with anyone with ties to this situation (I don't have business interactions with Leon, so don't even try it), especially after seeing the proprietor's deflection attempts. Playing dumb doesn't work. You know darn well what's happening within your own business, down to every little detail.

you my friends are absolutely correct. I won't be bidding on any baseball cards PERIOD

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

you my friends are absolutely correct. I won't be bidding on any baseball cards PERIOD

Will you be refraining from posting here?

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by perezfan

... Not a good time to diminish the meticulous work that's being done for the good of the hobby, or bury our heads in the sand.

If that’s the message you got out of my post then it’s time for you to take a functional literacy comprehension course.

[perezfan]

Outside of Jeff L's post, all of the outrage on the last 3 pages is directed at Moser and PWCC (unless someone posts differently while I'm writing this). Many of the posts even suggest that PSA and/or Collectors Universe should expand their operations to become even more powerful than they already are. The power they already wield is the bulk of the problem here... It's what is motivating the "doctors" to alter/submit to PSA, and their Registry is what's driving the insane prices paid for these altered cards. They are making the Card Doctors rich.

Increasing PSA's presence will only add to the problem. I understand that most people here have a vested interest in PSA, with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in their holders. But check out the 2 latest reveals on BO...

The '51 Bowman Mantle, from which Moser profited tremendously, and the '52 Mays, in which he actually lost money (a chemical burn resulted from his "cleaning" process). The common denominator in all of this is PSA's failure to detect anything. So aside from the "vested interests", why is such blind faith put in PSA to fix it?

It's like asking the Mayor of Flint, MI to fix their water crisis.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I understand that most people here have a vested interest in PSA, with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in their holders. . . . So aside from the "vested interests", why is such blind faith put in PSA to fix it?

It’s like the old saying, “Aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?”

I am afraid that the holder is now more important than its contents, if for no other reason than too many people have too much invested in the slab.

It’s always about the money. PSA is too big to fail.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

It’s like the old saying, “Aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?”

I am afraid that the holder is now more important than its contents, if for no other reason than too many people have too much invested in the slab.

It’s always about the money. PSA is too big to fail.

As I say, the flip is the commodity. Tis true.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Outside of Jeff L's post, all of the outrage on the last 3 pages is directed at Moser and PWCC (unless someone posts differently while I'm writing this). Many of the posts even suggest that PSA and/or Collectors Universe should expand their operations to become even more powerful than they already are. The power they already wield is the bulk of the problem here... It's what is motivating the "doctors" to alter/submit to PSA, and their Registry is what's driving the insane prices paid for these altered cards. They are making the Card Doctors rich.

Increasing PSA's presence will only add to the problem. I understand that most people here have a vested interest in PSA, with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in their holders. But check out the 2 latest reveals on BO...

The '51 Bowman Mantle, from which Moser profited tremendously, and the '52 Mays, in which he actually lost money (a chemical burn resulted from his "cleaning" process). The common denominator in all of this is PSA's failure to detect anything. So aside from the "vested interests", why is such blind faith put in PSA to fix it?

It's like asking the Mayor of Flint, MI to fix their water crisis.

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with. But if PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with.

Cant imagine why

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

If PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

To get the cards into the plastic holder so they can be sold for more money than if they were left raw. Once a trimmed card gets a grade, it is for all intents and purposes not a trimmed card anymore.

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with. But if PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

That’s the $200 million question. I rejoined this hobby back in 2014 and one of the main reasons I buy graded is because I couldn’t tel a fake from a real card and the holder allowed me to sleep easy that they were legit.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with. But if PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

I've asked that question too, but can't seem to get an answer. If you were hired to do a job and you couldn't do it for whatever reason - you didn't have the staff to execute the job, you didn't have enough time to execute the job, you simply don't know how to execute the job - whatever reason - would you take the customer's money anyway? I hope the answer would be no. So why does PSA continue to do it? Why are they taking customer's money if they can't detect alterations? I'm sorry but, to me, taking money for a job you can't do is way more fraudulent than what people are accusing PWCC of doing.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Outside of Jeff L's post, all of the outrage on the last 3 pages is directed at Moser and PWCC (unless someone posts differently while I'm writing this). Many of the posts even suggest that PSA and/or Collectors Universe should expand their operations to become even more powerful than they already are. The power they already wield is the bulk of the problem here... It's what is motivating the "doctors" to alter/submit to PSA, and their Registry is what's driving the insane prices paid for these altered cards. They are making the Card Doctors rich.

Increasing PSA's presence will only add to the problem. I understand that most people here have a vested interest in PSA, with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in their holders. But check out the 2 latest reveals on BO...

The '51 Bowman Mantle, from which Moser profited tremendously, and the '52 Mays, in which he actually lost money (a chemical burn resulted from his "cleaning" process). The common denominator in all of this is PSA's failure to detect anything. So aside from the "vested interests", why is such blind faith put in PSA to fix it?

It's like asking the Mayor of Flint, MI to fix their water crisis.

F PSA, F Brent Mastro and F Gary Hoser. They are all criminals, IMHO.

[bobbyw8469]

The more I read that post over on Blowout, the more BLOWN AWAY I am at the shear depth and mass quantity of cards that have been tainted by this guy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

The more I read that post over on Blowout, the more BLOWN AWAY I am at the shear depth and mass quantity of cards that have been tainted by this guy.

It's not confined to him by any means Bob. He just left an easier path to retrace.

[perezfan]

Correct. There are more card doctors than you can count. Moser is one... many more have been exposed on BO.

The common denominator is PSA authorization.

[Exhibitman]

This whole situation is f***ed. I don't collect the stuff that has been in these lists and posts but I feel just terrible about it for those who spent their hard-earned money on these fraudulent products. I also feel bad for this hobby. The vast majority of collectors and sellers are honest and decent folks who wouldn't dream of being part of a scam like this, and they (we) are all going to eat some financial crap because of this. All i can say to the doctors and their enablers is



damn you all to hell.

[perezfan]

Sad, but great post, Adam...

It's very disturbing that Planet Of The Fakes is the most prevalent world within the Collectors Universe

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

This whole situation is f***ed. I don't collect the stuff that has been in these lists and posts but I feel just terrible about it for those who spent their hard-earned money on these fraudulent products. I also feel bad for this hobby. The vast majority of collectors and sellers are honest and decent folks who wouldn't dream of being part of a scam like this, and they (we) are all going to eat some financial crap because of this. All i can say to the doctors and their enablers is







damn you all to hell.

+1


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