Conservation vs restoration defined by other genres of collectibles

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Additionally such a large percentage of known cards especially vintage are already in slabs...at a great cost. Good luck getting people to crack them all out at additional costs. I do not see that ever happening.

This. Years ago, Jim Crandall led the charge against altered cards. As long as they weren't his graded cards. I ate his ass out back then, but I get it. Can't blame him. It would not make much sense IMO to pay a ton for a card and then take the potentially huge financial hickey later.

What I can say is that when someone breaks a card out and resubmits it raw, whether a card doctor or a speculator, that's an entirely different story. They chose to take that risk and the card should then be graded appropriately. I know, that assumes that the TPG has the capacity to do that, which I have no confidence at all can occur. But isn't that what a TPG is supposed to do and what they represent they can do? So where do we go from here?

[Goudey77]

Watch the video I referenced. It’ll open your eyes to what is possible here.
Comic books are so much more detailed with multiple pages to analyze. You are telling me it’s impossible for TPG’s to assess a single card properly?

If CGC can do it. If PCGS can do it. It’s the next stage. Time to step it up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Watch the video I referenced. It’ll open your eyes to what is possible here.
Comic books are so much more detailed with multiple pages to analyze. You are telling me it’s impossible for TPG’s to assess a single card properly?

If CGC can do it. If PCGS can do it. It’s the next stage. Time to step it up.

TPGs could do it to some extent but not for the fees and turnaround times people demand and bitch about already, IMO.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

TPGs could do it to some extent but not for the fees and turnaround times people demand and bitch about already, IMO.

The turnaround times that people demand and bitch about are those which the TPGs advertise as being what is going to occur. Kind of hard for me to criticize people for bitching about the TPGs not even coming close to meeting their own stated criteria when they don't.

In terms of price, that's probably somewhat more fair. But again, they set their pricing criteria. I can't increase my fee because the case was lots harder than I originally thought it would be when my client signed my contract. Why can a TPG? I have a big level of discomfort with a higher cost "we'll probably have a higher chance to get it right if we have more time" level of grading given that "getting it right" has been the stated promise since TPG began. But i'm sure not seeing it right now, at least not on the examples shown on BO and elsewhere. If they need more time, say that. Don't make fraudulent promises that you know can't be fulfilled.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

The turnaround times that people demand and bitch about are those which the TPGs advertise as being what is going to occur. Kind of hard for me to criticize people of bitching about the TPGs not even coming close to meeting their own stated criteria.

In terms of price, that's probably somewhat more fair. But again, they set their pricing criteria. I can't increase my fee because the case was lots harder than I originally thought it would be when my client signed my contract. Why can a TPG? I have a big level of discomfort with a higher cost "we'll probably have a higher chance to get it right if we have more time" level of grading given that "getting it right" has been the stated promise since TPG began. But i'm sure not seeing it right now, at least not on the examples shown on BO and elsewhere. If they need more time, say that. Don't make fraudulent promises that you know can't be fulfilled.

You don't think people would bitch if TPGs formally changed their stated turnaround times and raised their fees? Dream on, in the words of Steven Tyler. People want it both ways. They want crime lab like scrutiny at minimal cost and quickly.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You don't think people would bitch if TPGs formally changed their stated turnaround times and raised their fees? Dream on, in the words of Steven Tyler.

Are they bitching now? Seems like they are. About both. At least if they changed their turnaround times and actually got it right, there would be less concern about one of the issues.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Are they bitching now? Seems like they are. About both. At least if they changed their turnaround times and actually got it right, there would be less concern about one of the issues.

I think they would have a riot if they formally changed their turnaround times. People these days are incredibly impatient, they bitch if an AH hasn't sent their cards within two days.

[Goudey77]

Kenny brings up a good point that has never come up in any of the comments.
How does PSA charge $1k or more on certain service levels and not catch a conservation job. Is there a certain level of tolerance when it comes to conservation measures? TPG’s could benefit from updating their standards at a minimum. To be fair more attention to detail is welcome at the $1k service level. Please and thank you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Kenny brings up a good point that has never come up in any of the comments.
How does PSA charge $1k or more on certain service levels and not catch a conservation job. Is there a certain level of tolerance when it comes to conservation measures? TPG’s could benefit from updating their standards at a minimum. To be fair more attention to detail is welcome at the $1k service level. Please and thank you.

That's a 10K - 25K card. That isn't where we're seeing the issues for the most part, is it?
Besides these guys doubtless try to sneak stuff through at lower tiers.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That's a 10K - 25K card. That isn't where we're seeing the issues for the most part, is it?
Besides these guys doubtless try to sneak stuff through at lower tiers.

Yes, It absolutely is the target audience if I’m reading what’s been outed.

[Goudey77]

I don’t want this link reference to get lost in the shuffle.

It’s worth watching and noting when we hold TPG’s to the highest standards.
CGC absolutely got it right by taking a stance on this topic.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

This. Years ago, Jim Crandall led the charge against altered cards. As long as they weren't his graded cards. I ate his ass out back then, but I get it. Can't blame him. It would not make much sense IMO to pay a ton for a card and then take the potentially huge financial hickey later.

What I can say is that when someone breaks a card out and resubmits it raw, whether a card doctor or a speculator, that's an entirely different story. They chose to take that risk and the card should then be graded appropriately. I know, that assumes that the TPG has the capacity to do that, which I have no confidence at all can occur. But isn't that what a TPG is supposed to do and what they represent they can do? So where do we go from here?

Hopefully the TPGs can find some way to step up their game, and hopefully law enforcement can make examples of a few people that will at least incrementally deter bad conduct.

[ullmandds]

Ya...6 minutes was plenty! The problem with this video and comparing the baseball card hobby to comics becomes clear in the first five minutes. They stated very early on that the comic book hobby was not mature enough such that subtle differences in grades affected value...When this guy started restoring comic books and merged his company with the grading company. So restoration was being done very early on in the continuum of grading within the comic book Hobby.

This scenario is quite the opposite of what is going on in the baseball card hobby these days.

Another apples to oranges bullshit analogy to justify devious behavior on the part of your friends...in my humble opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As I understand it, originality has always been crucial for baseball cards because with so many examples of most cards in existence, condition is the real differentiator. And that would not work if improving condition was permissible. Now sure they may be a niche market for people who just want a great looking card regardless of originality, but I don't think that's going to go mainstream.

[Goudey77]

Not bullshit analogy Pete. How did the card industry function before TPG’s. When everything was raw? Deals were made on handshakes and dollars with no guarantees. How in the world guys adopted the idea of a Third Party Grader telling them what condition their cards are baffles me? I still run into old school card guys who talk negatively towards TPG’s. Reality is that the card hobby is evolving and incidents like the ones being brought to light are an indication that we need some change.

To undo what’s been done is possible. There is always a clear path forward. What CGC did is possible with card TPG’s. Resist the idea all you want but you are only hurting yourself and this hobby by being stubborn to change. To throw up your hands and say nothing can be done other than to take matters into our own hands is irresponsible and a free pass to the guys making money off the idea of being a TPG or card doctor for that matter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Not bullshit analogy Pete. How did the card industry function before TPG’s. When everything was raw? Deals were made on handshakes and dollars with no guarantees. How in the world guys adopted the idea is a Third Party Grader telling them what condition their cards are baffles me? I still run into old school card guys who talk negatively towards TPG’s. Reality is that the card hobby is evolving and incidents like the ones being brought to light are an indication that we need some change.

To undo what’s been done is possible. There is always a clear path forward. What CGC did is possible with card TPG’s. Resist the idea all you want but you are only hurting yourself and this hobby by being stubborn to change. To throw up your hands and say nothing can be done other than to take matters into our own hands is irresponsible and a free pass to the guys making money off the idea of being a TPG.

I think you had two things happening more or less at the same time, card doctoring was rampant so there was a market for what people believed was good third party authentication, and more and more business was done not in person. It's the internet that ultimately made TPGs I think even if PSA started a little before.

[drcy]

My ex brother-in-law was a vintage big movie memorabilia collector and he explained how it works with movie posters. If you restore (or conserve) a Vg vintage movie poster to NrmMt, it will be worth more than Vg but less than NrmMt. And it was the hobby requirement that any restoration be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing restoration or conservation would be considered fraud, because it affected the valued

In that area, taste and sentiment would vary between collectors, but restoration and conservation wasn't frowned upon, and often was seen as positive for the preservation of the delicate posters. However, the pricing and requirement for disclosure was as was stated in paragraph #1. In all areas of collecting, whether it is common and accepted (paintings, movie posters) or not (American Indian artifacts), conservation and restoration affects market value, and, thus, has to be disclosed.

Also, conservation (which could include restoration) was a serious, scientific treatment, including of the paper, to stabilize it and preserve it for posterity. It was not "spooning out wrinkles."

To repeat: SPOONING OUT WRINKLES AND REMOVING WAX STAINS IS NOT CONSERVATION. No one in the other hobbies, the art or artifacts world, defines conservation as PWCC does. And, even if they did, the 'conservation' would still have to be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing it would be considered fraud. It does not matter what word you call it, you're still altering ('doing work on' if you prefer) the item, and that has to be disclosed. If Brent insists on calling it 'conservation,' fine. But that does not change the fact that it has to be disclosed, and, because knowledge that the card has been 'conserved' would lower the market value, it is fraud.

Originally Posted by drcy

My ex brother-in-law was a vintage big movie memorabilia collector and he explained how it works with movie posters. If you restore (or conserve) a Vg vintage movie poster to NrmMt, it will be worth more than Vg but less than NrmMt. And it was the hobby requirement that any restoration be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing restoration or conservation would be considered fraud, because it affected the valued

In that area, taste and sentiment would vary between collectors, but restoration and conservation wasn't frowned upon, and often was seen as positive for the preservation of the delicate posters. However, the pricing and requirement for disclosure was as was stated in paragraph #1. In all areas of collecting, whether it is common and accepted (paintings, movie posters) or not (American Indian artifacts), conservation and restoration affects market value, and, thus, has to be disclosed.

Also, conservation (which could include restoration) was a serious, scientific treatment, including of the paper, to stabilize it and preserve it for posterity. It was not "spooning out wrinkles."

To repeat: SPOONING OUT WRINKLES AND REMOVING WAX STAINS IS NOT CONSERVATION. No one in the other hobbies, the art or artifacts world, defines conservation as PWCC does. And, even if they did, the 'conservation' would still have to be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing it would be considered fraud. It does not matter what word you call it, you're still altering ('doing work on' if you prefer) the item, and that has to be disclosed. If Brent insists on calling it 'conservation,' fine. But that does not change the fact that it has to be disclosed, and, because knowledge that the card has been 'conserved' would lower the market value, it is fraud.

This^

[steve B]

Originally Posted by drcy

My ex brother-in-law was a vintage big movie memorabilia collector and he explained how it works with movie posters. If you restore (or conserve) a Vg vintage movie poster to NrmMt, it will be worth more than Vg but less than NrmMt. And it was the hobby requirement that any restoration be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing restoration or conservation would be considered fraud, because it affected the valued

In that area, taste and sentiment would vary between collectors, but restoration and conservation wasn't frowned upon, and often was seen as positive for the preservation of the delicate posters. However, the pricing and requirement for disclosure was as was stated in paragraph #1. In all areas of collecting, whether it is common and accepted (paintings, movie posters) or not (American Indian artifacts), conservation and restoration affects market value, and, thus, has to be disclosed.

Also, conservation (which could include restoration) was a serious, scientific treatment, including of the paper, to stabilize it and preserve it for posterity. It was not "spooning out wrinkles."

To repeat: SPOONING OUT WRINKLES AND REMOVING WAX STAINS IS NOT CONSERVATION. No one in the other hobbies, the art or artifacts world, defines conservation as PWCC does. And, even if they did, the 'conservation' would still have to be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing it would be considered fraud. It does not matter what word you call it, you're still altering ('doing work on' if you prefer) the item, and that has to be disclosed. If Brent insists on calling it 'conservation,' fine. But that does not change the fact that it has to be disclosed, and, because knowledge that the card has been 'conserved' would lower the market value, it is fraud.

This is pretty much exactly how it should be.

Lets face a few facts, without some actual conservation, some of our cards won't last another hundred years. Many of the 1920's strip cards are shaky already. Even some really modern stuff is already having problems.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

This is pretty much exactly how it should be.

Lets face a few facts, without some actual conservation, some of our cards won't last another hundred years. Many of the 1920's strip cards are shaky already. Even some really modern stuff is already having problems.

What modern stuff do you see having problems?

[steve B]

Here is how another hobby handles an alteration.

This was I think 3 months getting a certificate, at $35. I didn't know the cancel was fake, but the PF did. I'm still very happy with it, as it's a new discovery. (Not my discovery, but I believe this was the first copy certified) I don't know if they needed it, but I sent a copy of the article identifying this as a foreign entry along with it.

The fake cancel may have been added for a couple reasons. The stamp may have had damaged gum, or been stuck down so the gum was removed. A nice used copy probably sells faster than an unused copy that's got a problem like no gum. (decent price reduction). It's also possible that there's a very light cancel in a common color, and the blue fake was added to increase the value( decent addition to catalog value for a blue cancel)

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by steve B

This is pretty much exactly how it should be.

Lets face a few facts, without some actual conservation, some of our cards won't last another hundred years. Many of the 1920's strip cards are shaky already. Even some really modern stuff is already having problems.

I believe they are already being "conserved" just by putting them in those dumb plastic holders, without the haircuts.