Conservation vs restoration defined by other genres of collectibles

[benjulmag]

Perhaps a good place to start is to stop referring to slabbed cards as "graded" as cards, but instead as "examined" cards (or some other word that gives the same meaning). The point of slabbing should be to convey objective information. In contrast, a numerical grade conveys a subjective conclusion. Who's to say centering should take preference over registration? Or a sharp corner should matter more than photo contrast? Or that a stain on the verso of a blank-backed card should be given comparable weight to a stain on the front of the card? One person's 8 could be another person's 5. Collecting should be about personal enjoyment, which is a subjective concept. To complement this concept the information the flip conveys should be simply to state objective information about what if anything was done to the card, and from that point on leave it to the collector to decide whether to purchase the card and what to pay.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

the information the flip conveys should be simply to state objective information about what if anything was done to the card, and from that point on leave it to the collector to decide whether to purchase the card and what to pay.

+1.

I remember the first time I saw a number grade for an autograph — it was on a Ty Cobb signed check in a PSA/DNA holder at the White Plains Show maybe 10 years ago. It had an outrageous price tag because it was a PSA 10. To this day, I have never paid for a TPG to “grade the autograph” because all I care about is authentication. I can make my own decisions about whether a signature is beautiful, crisp, and clean, but I like an independent opinion on authenticity.

[T206Collector]

Also, has SGC been caught up in any of this? Back when I was routinely having cards graded by PSA and SGC - 10+ years ago - it was pretty obvious that PSA often missed trimming that SGC would catch. I know it’s a different group of graders now, as most of that team has either joined REA or PSA, but perhaps their system catches these what-now-seem-to-be-obvious trim jobs?

Or is it that the doctors target the registry community? As long as people still care so much about the difference between a 9.5 and a 10, you’ll just be inviting all sorts of funny business that pisses off somebody’s notion of grading ethics.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Also, has SGC been caught up in any of this? Back when I was routinely having cards graded by PSA and SGC - 10+ years ago - it was pretty obvious that PSA often missed trimming that SGC would catch. I know it’s a different group of graders now, as most of that team has either joined REA or PSA, but perhaps their system catches these what-now-seem-to-be-obvious trim jobs?

Or is it that the doctors target the registry community? As long as people still care so much about the difference between a 9.5 and a 10, you’ll just be inviting all sorts of funny business that pisses off somebody’s notion of grading ethics.

I don't think people submit to SGC the high end modern cards where a lot of this is being outed. And I suspect that most card doctors want to get their cards into PSA slabs because for better or worse they sell for more.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Perhaps a good place to start is to stop referring to slabbed cards as "graded" as cards, but instead as "examined" cards (or some other word that gives the same meaning). The point of slabbing should be to convey objective information. In contrast, a numerical grade conveys a subjective conclusion. Who's to say centering should take preference over registration? Or a sharp corner should matter more than photo contrast? Or that a stain on the verso of a blank-backed card should be given comparable weight to a stain on the front of the card? One person's 8 could be another person's 5. Collecting should be about personal enjoyment, which is a subjective concept. To complement this concept the information the flip conveys should be simply to state objective information about what if anything was done to the card, and from that point on leave it to the collector to decide whether to purchase the card and what to pay.

I also agree with this...OBJECTIVE INFO should be conveyed by an opinion on a card. The whole grading mentality and the registry have helped create the problems we have today.

Above all DISCLOSURE of whats been done to a card is PARAMOUNT.

[brad31]

A couple of thoughts on this:

1) To me this would embolden many more to trim cards. If there was a Trimmed 8 that sold for 50% of a regular 8 - then the card doctors can be more bold. The risk of trimming a 5 and it possibly being detected and going to an altered holder is a deterrent. It is possible to lose money if the TPG detects the alteration. Now it could be break even if detected and a huge gain if not detected.

2) Comic book grading has never made sense to me. While not a collector - what if my favorite art from the book were on page 5, 9 and 11 of a comic book. I am paying all this money and never even seeing those pages on my book. Are these books scanned and retained somewhere page by page so you can actually see what you are buying? Makes sense that they need to take more time and get it right because unlike with cards you cannot see the majority of it with your own eyes.

To me the TPGs need to find a way to examine the card edges better and finding ways to detect trimming. If that takes hiring more people and giving them more time it is their duty to do so. If some people turn these cards in and they actually honor their guarantee then hopefully they can use those cards to find a way to find and train on what they missed. Unfortunately I do not see this as what will happen.

My prediction is it goes the way of the comic book. Way easier to error on the side of caution when you grade the trimmed card. This way min size cards will get into trimmed holders - they tighten standards on size - change color labels so key cards have to be graded again into the new conserved and “original” holder. Collectors over time have to bite the bullet and pay thousands of dollars to get key cards into “original” holders with cards in the current red holder selling at a discount in the marketplace.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's an interesting point about comic book grading that I had not thought about. If it's sealed, you can't read it. Seems to defeat the whole point of a comic book, no?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That's an interesting point about comic book grading that I had not thought about. If it's sealed, you can't read it. Seems to defeat the whole point of a comic book, no?

Opaque slabs for trading cards would be the equivalent in our hobby and would allow Registry collectors to focus more clearly on the flip.

Therefore if you can't see it, the whole point of a trading card is defeated, no?